Guybrush

I should emphasize again the point that human evolution does not mean human improvement. Imagine the genes that make women lousy at giving natural births. If they spread through a human population due to technological advancements, that means humankind as a whole are changing to become less able to naturally birth children. That is also evolution.

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Something Completely Different

SATCHMO

I think I need to emphasise that I'm speaking of evolution in two very different senses of the word, both biological evolution and the evolution of human kind as a culture. The former admittedly takes place over a tremendously large time span, but the latter seems to be transpiring very quickly at an ever increasing rate.

One of the often overlooked ways in which technology as adaptation is particularly relevant is because it brings about the concept of human intention. A giraffe cannot say "I am going to find a way to extend my neck to reach the top leaves of these trees" and subsequently create a piece of technology enabling it to do so. If it were to happen it would transpire over the course of hundreds to millions of years (i have no idea, really), but we as a species have the capacity to think in such an intentive way and follow through with our own innovation to make it a reality within the course of a generation. When you look at it from this sense we are circumventing biological evolution, perhaps not removing the influence of biological evolution, but certainly lessening it's influence, as I said in my previous post.

Maybe it's nothing that can be observed from a purely biological perspective, but we are certainly, I think, influencing our evolution through our own collective intention. At the dawn of our species, biological evolution determined our direction as a species almost exclusively, because our technologies were few and quite unrefined, but at this point, and maybe only this point in the grand scheme of the homo genus, we seem to be piloting our own course. This is a very interesting point in human history.

MoonlitSunshine

There's a marked difference between evolution and Evolution, I think that's where most of the uncertainty arises.

I agree with you, Satch, in that we can influence Evolution. We have done so using domestic animals, and continue to due so today on a regular basis, using selective breeding. The problem is that it is rather more difficult to control the breeding habits of the entire population of the earth - while it would be nice to say that the intelligent and socially adept of us succeed in life, succeeding in life isn't necessarily proportional to breeding success. Indeed, I know there are a lot of people who are worried about the fact that the "bottom feeding, good for nothing 12-child welfare families are the ones that are breeding like rabbits, and that the intelligent, university educated professionals are doing so at a much slower rate. As you say, our actions are influencing the kind of person who succeeds, the kind of person who survives, the kind of person who lives long enough to procreate, but I think it is wrong to say that we are "influencing our evolution". Rather, we are influencing the environment and the requisites for the continuation of specific genes, which is of course then changing the direction of our evolution. You could even say that to a certain extent we are killing "evolution", or at the very least preventing our species from developing in a positive manner, given the fact that it is no longer the smartest, strongest and most able that survive to procreate. By advancing medicine, by showing compassion, and allowing "defective" genes to continue, we are in essence dirtying out own gene pool.

Where am I going with this? I don't know, I have a habit of getting distracted :P

Evolution and evolution. "Evolution", the capitalised term, is the gradual process which maps the overall process of Natural Selection (or, indeed, unnatural, manmade selection), and defines how a species grows and changes over time to adapt to its environment and the constraints therein. This is different to evolution, which is a word in the English language meaning how something can evolve in any sense, like the evolution of the gaming console, or the evolution of an idea. They have similarities, but there are aspects of evolution that aren't contained within Evolution, if that makes sense.

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"I found it eventually, at the bottom of a locker in a disused laboratory, with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard". Ever thought of going into Advertising?"

- Arthur Dent

Guybrush

Satch, I get what you're saying (or writing) and I agree with you My last post before yours should confirm it, although perhaps I got a bit wrapped up in biological terminology to get the point across clearly.

Using terminology, you can say that technology lessens or even completely removes selection pressure. In the future, there's less need for genes coding for strong and durable hearts because we can get artificial hearts when the biological ones fail. Or a bit more out there; we don't have to evolve wings to fly because we can build planes.

One could say that we influence evolution, but it may be more correct to say we are influencing our environment. It's the environment which determines which way we'll evolve and technology is part of the our environment.

Some past technological achievements will have had tremendous effect on our evolution, like the invention of the spear and the collection/nurturing/creation of fire. I've sometimes wondered if the human fascination and fondness for fire could have something to do with our evolutionary history. After all, most animals don't like it.

edit :

Moonlit, just read your post now! Good call on the environment thingy I don't think there's need to despair over the course of human evolution just yet. At the moment, people in general only seem to get smarter. Perhaps when that curve starts to flatten or even slope downwards, we can worry about that sort of stuff.

In general, I'm sceptical towards praising certain traits over others, like intelligence. Enough intelligence to not be an idiot is good of course, but having more than average intelligence isn't necessarily better than for example having good social skills. It depends on the person and what he or she does with it. If you start thinking eugenics, you could rank the quality of a person based on what genes he or she has and then we have low quality people and good quality people of better breeding. To some degree, people do this already, but I generally don't think it's a good idea and so perhaps thoughts like these don't need encouragement.

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Something Completely Different

blankety blank

I'm not going to rant here tore, but, you did show me some things that are quite puzzling. But, sorry I did rant. But, I would like some serious answers please?

Because, you wrote this:

So, I am not to ponder, or offer any debate. Because, you said not to care.

"It's not something people should be concerning themselves with''.

'Just let it unfold naturally'

Just for reference, you might want to consider cloning. I hear they can do it. Or, was that a media hoax?

But, thanks for reminding me not to concern myself, or yourself with the evolution issue. I need to pick your brain with your real life occupation.

I know you do not like getting wrapped up in biological terminology, but, it's in Latin, and all terms are too much work for me. Specifically, I need your input on some microbiology. And, embryo genesis and Morphogenesis might be a direction we should go on this 'god is the mind'? statement with a question mark.

But, you just don't believe that things happen for a purpose, but, you sent me, and you, and everyone a sign.

We teach best what we most need to learn.

One quick point, and then some simple questions will be asked of you.

I understand most biologists consider ascending or descending on the ladder of taxonomy to be both evolution. But, come on tore, it's either evolution or devolution, or backwards evolution. I have been ranting for months on this backward/forward issue, and, I spew nonsense, evidently.

And, the reason you did not understand the previous question of mine, is because, you approached it from the subject of Metaphysics, not Microbiology

I'm not into Philosophy, I am more of a Philology student. I do prefer logic over wisdom. I love Wisdom, but, you cannot seek her, she finds you. But, we need Logos, before any gift of Wisdom. Philology - 'beloved dear friend of Logos, the Word'.



So, there were several signs in that song.

Don't explode.

Do this don't do that. No pondering, or offering any debate.

Too. Much. Outrage.

And tore. Don't throw people in the fish pond. I was kidding, so, don't explode please? I need some information.

Rarely do members
of one family grow up
under the same
roof.

Why do I say this?

god is in your mind? This is the thread. It's not a question. It's a statement. god is in your mind.

god in the context of one genus of definition is 'voice'. Is there a voice in your mind? I hope it's your own, because, if you're hearing strange voices, then you need medication.

tore, and everybody answer a couple to few simple questions.

Are you who you are? It is fair for to simply say yes? You are who you are?

Are you what you are?

I hope that is not confusing. I have to wonder.

That's question number one.

Here's what I would like you to answer tore.

I had a message many years ago that said to the effect of 'there is a missing regulatory gene'. I have a missing one, or we do, I am not sure. I know it applies to me, because, there is nothing of a 'homeostasis' in my whole body.

'Same state of being'. There is a clue.

And, then it went on to say that the answer lies in stem-cell research, and, that the cures for many diseases, including cancers were out there. Many diseases which would prolong the aging process were available in this research.

Why won't they permit it? Not over here; they don't. Not even when the Democrats controlled all three branches of this 'Democracy'.

Do you guys over there allow it? How about medications? Does the government supply generic drugs available to all? And, your pharmaceutical companies make trillions over here selling name-brands for huge profits?

You don't have to answer that. I know the deal on that bu*ls*it.

Here's another problem. Apart from an irregular heartbeat since childhood, a temperature of around 97.6, and, a slowed heart rate of 55-60, as a young man; they thought so low I couldn't donate blood, and, a severe fungal allergy. This was when I was a young man. Fungus growing everywhere, and, it's eating me alive. The curious thing is that babies here born between 1955-1962 were lucky enough to be vaccinated with a polio vaccine that contained organisms from a tainted monkey liver.

Is that natural selection? I laugh, but, it is not funny. Now, I have one three-letter mental disorder. ADD. It was ADHD, but, I have no energy to be hyperactive, and, haven't for a long time.

Better yet, the insurance companies over here will not cover long-term anti fungal medications, because, they say that rotting yellow toenail fungus is a cosmetic situation, and, they won't pay for it. Even though I've had battles with thrush so many times I cannot count. And, anti-fungal medications don't work, so, I spent a sh*tlo*d on various combinations of organic attempts to treat it. I finally found out that spritzing H202 down the throat did the trick. It helps a lot of things, like bronchitis and getting oxygen into the lungs to the bloodstream.

Physical disorders are a long list. And, they are due to various crap, like fluoride, which is inaccurate. It's more like flouricidic acid, and silicoflouride, but, nonetheless, disassociation breaks them down just fine into the nice halogens of poisonous salt-formers; who just love to bond with all that sodium they put in our diets. It's nice for all these by-products of steel manufacturing and nuclear waste to be so good for your teeth. They look out for us over here. And, they just are putting straight fluorine into an ever-increasing amount of new medications. But, they are nice enough to put enough sodium in our for the chlorine as well. They wouldn't think to corrode our bodies with highly electronegative halogens, who are the whores of the table of elements.

Is that natural selection? The problem with you guys, is that they over-educate you. They keep you busy learning all that Latin, Greek, and formulas, and, shi*. They don't do that here. They just teach enough to pass the 'civil service' exams. They don't call it that, but, kids can't pass them anyway, because, the teachers don't give a crap. They don't make much money. So, we have a fairly large dropout rate. And, the inner city infrastructures are kept in line with little or no education at all, but, supplied nicely with an abundance of drugs, most noticeably crack cocaine, which they then supply, and bust offenders, and convict them, sentencing them to very long term sentences. They built a lot of prisons, and, they are still over-crowded. I suppose oppression would fall under the category of 'who gets laid or not'. The funny thing is that i have always had beautiful, beautiful women in my life. Not, because of any smart/sociable attractiveness. It was because i f*c*ed them like they were never going to get it again! Eat that Darwin, i did, and well. That was just wrong.

And, they give antibiotics out like candy for anything. Who cares if it's a viral infection. Here, take these for ten days, and make sure you complete the dose, or the virus could come back. Doctors are f*c*ing afraid of their DEA number over here. Big Brother is watching them, making sure Celebrex is prescribed as opposed to the opiates that actually suppress the pain. But, a 300 dollar supply is a bit more than a 5 dollar supply. Capitalism is part of the 'fittest in nature' concept. They are lucky I'm too sick too fuc* em up. The Communist Manifesto. What a dirty socialist evil scum Karl Marx was, the devil himself. Socialize v Capitalize, there's a thread in there somewhere.

Is this nonsense, or what? Do you know of any way that I could possibly rid myself of all that fungus from the antibiotics that replace any beneficial fungus with ones that can eat through concrete? And, I have never had a doctor tell that I might want to supplement a pro-biotic with the antibiotic. You have to learn that for yourself. Any advice would be appreciated tore.

That's a lot of questions, but, at least we don't need to concern ourselves with issues of past or future, and, focus on what we can achieve in the now. Because, the answer to the major riddle of those books, lies in the idea of the microcosm creating the 'image' of the macrocosm. Throw out a picture of a spermatozoa, and a simple picture of the brain and spinal cord. They are somewhat similar, at least in my view. I don't see well either. Amblyopia is the term that apparently is floating on the red see. It's the left eye, but, I will bet a million dollars or pounds, or euros; that if you were looking at it, it would be on your right side.

But, it has everything to do with science, it could not be a reflection. We see things the way they are, right?

But, it's a theory with a working definition. The beast and his image.

We don't need any complicated formulas or math. 'Be fruitful, multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it'. Just basic Algebra might just work. Isolate the variable. Then, it as matter of multiplication. It solves a lot of riddles that I cannot seem to explain, and, have it make sense. So, we will try math. And, if you don't get it, we are going see Alice in Wonderland, or Mary had a little lamb. Or, watch the Matrix. That was a great movie. And, poignant, since it was Morpheus who doped the 'man' up, and, pluck a rib, and whipped up a woman. Funny 'man and woman', are pronounced identically in Hebrew. But, I don't know s**t, so don't f*cki*g listen to my nonsensical bu*s*it. I'm a troll. I still don't what it is, but, that's what I am apparently.

And, trans-humanism or post-humanism, as you are seemingly suggesting, is a bit too costly. You said it yourself tore. It's not profitable, so, a bit of cleansing of around 5-6 billion people would probably be a more effective approach. It would have to be a natural selection, of course

And, I put a smiley, but, it's really not funny at all.

The major question was 'are you who/what you are'?

Who better than The Who to ask that question?



And, why do all these songs contain religious symbolism? Pete Townsend I heard had a propensity for young boys. That's unnatural selection in my book that 'unfolds'. I suppose if they were mature, and, over legal drinking age, i wouldn't judge. So, that is that. It is not my call to judge. It's yours, and his, not mine.

Here's the judgment. Nobody in this world is more superior than anyone else. The CEO of Nike is no more important than the ten-year old girl making $150 tennis shoes for 50 cents a day. It's a free-market society, right. She must not have swum fast enough i guess. And, nobody would want to lay her, right? Plenty of corporate freaks frequently visit Southeast Asia for twelve-year old girls. Is that natural selections. The unfolded book of mine, says it's sick.

there's your rant. I didn't make it complicated, so, if you don't understand. It's your fault this time. Any smack back, will be addressed in similar fashion. I am not playing the fool anymore. This just let it slide naturally issue is apathy, and an I don't care about anyone but me. Evolution may eventually reward selfishness. Don't count on it. 98% of all known species are extinct. What are the odds that man survives? And, we are digging up our own bones. How big are we to a Phylum? I would bank on huge.

Guybrush

Before I start picking your post apart, I have to say I am still having problems with your posts, Blankety (or Steve). Being able to convey your messages or questions clearly and concisely shows clarity of mind and intent, but your posts seem like a collages of random thoughts that barely point in the same direction.

If you want to ask me a question and want a good reply, imagine that I have no imagination whatsoever and so if you don't formulate your question well, I will not be able to imagine what it is you are asking. Of course, I do have an imagination, but I am a very literal minded person. I generally don't think in symbols and metaphors.

Perhaps you misunderstood? I meant that people should not be concerned about human evolution. I thought people were generally aware of the fascist ideals such thinking can lead to. If you are concerned with human evolution, that means you are concerned with who gets to add to humanity's collective gene pool. Do you really feel only certain people should be allowed to have children so that we can breed a race of übermensch?

I hope not!

What does this mean? What about embryogenesis/morphogenesis? How do you want this to be relevant to the discussion?

There's no such thing as a de-evolution. There is such a thing as a reduction of traits. That is when a previously evolved trait diminishes through evolution, for example if humans evolved smaller brains.

Why would I explode? I basically don't get this part.

Only the voice of reason The only voice in my head is my own.

Not sure what sort of answer you want or even what you're asking, but yes, I consider me to be me. I am a the unique expression of a unique mixture of genes passed down to me by my parents. I have my own unique experiences and memories, so I don't think it's possible for me to be anyone but myself.

Okay. I can comment that it's generally hard for medications to get out on the market because the testing is incredibly strict. There's a lot of steps that need to be overcome before a drug can be tested on people. I'm waiting for some drugs to pass testing myself. I'd love it if I could have stemcells improve my hearing, but unfortunately, last time I read about this, they were having problems with cancer developing from stemcells. Stemcells have an active enzyme (telomerase) that I mentioned earlier which makes them more likely to develop into cancer cells. Possibly there are other contributing factors as well.

Vaccinating people is not natural selection, no. The consequence that chronically ill people (whatever they are sick from) on average have fewer children than the healthy is natural selection. It is a consequence of the environment. Chronically ill people are, on average, less attractive sexual partners and f.ex have a harder time getting good education and good jobs.

These consequences and others make it so that healthy people are the ones who contribute most to the collective human gene pool. They are the ones being "selected" for. As it's not a consequence of intentional manipulation, but rather just a consequence of how things are, we call it natural. Had the government prohibited chronically ill people from having children, then it would have been artificial selection - which is basically the same as breeding.

I don't understand. I am sorry to hear about your health problems. Tap water is typically chemically cleaned with the intent of removing parasites and bacteria. Why do you ask if this is natural selection? What is it about your understanding of natural selection that makes you ask this? Perhaps you can reformulate your question?

I generally feel that there's a golden middle road where you can have a competitive market where that is beneficial and government control where that is beneficial.

When it comes to antibiotics, it's sad how eagerly used they are. These are things that should be used with caution. Otherwise, new strains of bacterias evolve in the antibiotic environments which will be resistant to the antibiotics. In Norway, antibiotics are used more sparsely than in most other European countries, I believe.

Probiotic with the antibiotic can be a good idea if you get stomach problems. The bacterias in your gut are needed to digest things like milk, but antibiotics can also remove these. By eating yoghurt and taking probiotic, you can help keep the "good" bacterias in your gut.

As for what you can do to rid yourself of fungal infections, I'm not sure. As far as I know, most are superficial sitting in the skin or nails. Few people have serious fungal infections inside their bodies, unless they have very bad immune systems (old people and AIDS). For the superficial stuff, there are creams you can get. For internal infections, that's a serious problem which needs a doctors attention.

Living healthy always helps of course. Eat well, excercise and live a happy life.

They are similar, but only like a cloud might look sort of like a dragon. Most animals (ex. insects, spiders, crustaceans, echinoderms) with sperm don't have a spinal chord with a brain on top so this look-alike only works for us chordates that have a vertebrae with a brain on top.



The above is bee sperm and as you can see, it looks pretty much like ours.

Sperm looks the way it does because of efficiency. They need to swim to the egg and impregnate it and this shape is handy for that.

How am I supposed to understand what this means? The beast and his image? Lazy eye?

What sort of train are your thoughts riding here?

Cleansing of people based on their genetics/heritage is what you might get when people concern themselves with human evolution instead of letting it just takes its course. The nazis decided that jew genes were bad and that genes that give rise to blonde hair and blue eyes were good. They wanted to breed people.

Luckily today, modern society has generally left that kind of thinking and a human life is seen to have value that transcends just the genetic makeup. I think that's a good thing.

That humans are the result of natural selection does not mean that we only possess good qualities. That's misunderstanding a whole lot. But generally speaking, we possess mostly good qualities. Very bad genetic qualities tend to be in the minority, unless they have a positive effect on human fitness.

It's also possible for traits to get selected for along with something else. The russian scientist Dmitry Belyaev breeded tame foxes. He started with wild foxes and only let the most tame reproduce. Tameness was the only trait he selected for. But, after some generations, the foxes had started to take on a dog-like appearance. The reason was the tamest foxes were generally the ones with mutations like floppy ears and colour markings. The reason is the genes that cause tameness also cause floppy ears and other morphological features not common in wild foxes. So, when Dmitry Belyaev selected for tameness, he also selected for these other traits which tagged along.

Evolution is not the simple subject many believe it to be which is why people in general know less about it than they think!

Are you offended that I don't think people should try to control human evolution? If you are, let me know what your human breeding regime will look like then and perhaps you can change my mind.

As for phylum, phylums are huge. All organisms in the world belong to a relatively few phylums. Humans are in chordata while insects, spiders, mites, crustaceans, millipedes and so on belong to arthropoda, etc.

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Something Completely Different

Guybrush

A quick question to other participants in this thread; am I the only one struggling with extracting the meaning from Blankety's posts?

Sorry for the double post, but my previous one nearly reached 20 000 characters already!

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Something Completely Different

RVCA

No. I gave up on him a long time ago, before this thread ever popped into existence.

Janszoon

You mean you actually read them?

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A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man

Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die

last.fm

FRED HALE SR.

I wanted to understand what he was saying. As you stated hes all over the place. I think you've done a fairly good job in being understanding, but its an uphill battle I wouldn't wish upon anyone. Good luck