The Philosophical Debate Thread

[RoxyRollah]

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I wasn't aware that reincarnation had to be through a soul/spirit. I was just saying although I'm an athiest I feel a connection to the universe through the kind of psuedo-reincarnation I explained. A connection to something greater, and knowing that what I'm made of has potentially been around for more years than I can fathom and will one day leave me and continue on for eternity as we understand it.

I guess that doesn't make me spiritual like I always say I am, but it's an amazing feeling.

You're not an atheist then b.

[DwnWthVwls]

When I say something greater I mean a functioning system not like an actual entity or powerful being and definitely not anything like God in the manmade religions. Why the hell are you not in here with us?

[RoxyRollah]

Dude I cleared my cache and evurythang. I don't get it, I reset my router too. Im 4ging it right now.
So like you feel intune with this greater force?

[DwnWthVwls]

Not necessarily, I just think about it sometimes and it amazes me knowing that I'm made from the same stuff as the universe. Everything in existence(that we know of) is a combination of a only few different things. We understand it but when you take a step back it's just incredible, and it makes me happy and overwhelmed.

[The Batlord]

DWV: The Anti-Lovecraft

[DwnWthVwls]

How so? Im not really familiar with the genre(?).

[Xurtio]

Well... all I can say is happy and overwhelmed isn't exactly something you'd read in Lovecraft novel.

Hey, have you ever seen Symphony of Science's "We are all connected" ? You'd probably dig it.

[DwnWthVwls]

Nope, I'll go google it.

I quickly googled Lovecraft and found this quote:

Now all my tales are based on the fundamental premise that common human laws and interests and emotions have no validity or significance in the vast cosmos-at-large. To me there is nothing but puerility in a tale in which the human form—and the local human passions and conditions and standards—are depicted as native to other worlds or other universes. To achieve the essence of real externality, whether of time or space or dimension, one must forget that such things as organic life, good and evil, love and hate, and all such local attributes of a negligible and temporary race called mankind, have any existence at all. Only the human scenes and characters must have human qualities. These must be handled with unsparing realism, (not catch-penny romanticism) but when we cross the line to the boundless and hideous unknown—the shadow-haunted Outside—we must remember to leave our humanity and terrestrialism at the threshold.

— H. P. Lovecraft, in note to the editor of Weird Tales,
on resubmission of "The Call of Cthulhu".[33]

I don't disagree with any of that, but based on what we currently know from science, that isn't how the universe is. If I found out today that everything in existence isn't made up of only the atoms which connect us all to one another I would no longer feel the way I previously explained. As for the underlined, we can already recognize the insignificance of our local attributes by studying many of the animals on Earth. I don't believe we have some greater purpose or that our existence is important.

I'm just unsure about what he means by any existence at all. Is it some philosophical thing where we don't actually physically exist, like we are just the manifestation of a thought?

[DwnWthVwls]

Just watched the first 2 videos in the series.. Pretty awesome, thanks. I'll check more of them out later.

[Mr. Charlie]

Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie

I love this fella. He's quite Zen and funny as f**k. Socrates' equal, up there with the very best:

More witty and profound teachings by Diogenes. Some of them are brilliant and laugh out loud funny:



"Why is it, Diogenes, that pupils leave you to go to other teachers, but rarely do they leave them to come to you?"

"Because," replied Diogenes, "one can make eunuchs out of men, but no one can make a man out of eunuchs".

***

In winter Diogenes walked barefoot in the snow. In summer he rolled in the hot sand. He did this to harden himself against discomfort.

"But aren't you overdoing it a little?" a disciple asked.

"Of course," replied Diogenes, "I am like a teacher of choruses who has to sing louder than the rest in order they may get the right note."

***

A student of philosophy, eager to display his powers of argument, approached Diogenes, introduced himself and said, "If it pleases you, sir, let me prove to you that there is no such thing as motion." Whereupon Diogenes immediately got up and left.

***

A disciple asked Diogenes, "What is the main reason for wearing a cynics robe and the begging bowl?"

"So as not to deceive oneself."

***

When someone once asked Diogenes why he often laughed by himself, he said, "For that very reason."

***

Plato considered Diogenes' stray-dog behaviour unbecoming to one calling himself a philosopher. "You really do live up to your name" he said to him disapprovingly one day. "By the Gods, you are right for once Plato," replied Diogenes, and then baring his teeth, he added, "But at least I've sunk my teeth into philosophy."

***

Plato was discoursing on his theory of ideas and, pointing to the cups on the table before him, said while there are many cups in the world, there is only one `idea' of a cup, and this cupness precedes the existence of all particular cups.

"I can see the cup on the table," interupted Diogenes, "but I can't see the `cupness'".

"That's because you have the eyes to see the cup," said Plato, "but", tapping his head with his forefinger, "you don't have the intellect with which to comprehend `cupness'."

Diogenes walked up to the table, examined a cup and, looking inside, asked, "Is it empty?"

Plato nodded.

"Where is the `emptiness' which procedes this empty cup?" asked Diogenes.

Plato allowed himself a few moments to collect his thoughts, but Diogenes reached over and, tapping Plato's head with his finger, said "I think you will find here is the `emptiness'."

***

Diogenes was knee deep in a stream washing vegetables. Coming up to him, Plato said, "My good Diogenes, if you knew how to pay court to kings, you wouldn't have to wash vegetables."

"And," replied Diogenes, "If you knew how to wash vegetables, you wouldn't have to pay court to kings."

***

Diogenes was once asked what he thought of Socrates. "A madman," he replied.

Later, Plato was asked what he thought of Diogenes. "A Socrates gone mad," he replied.

Diogenes ridiculed Plato for being long-winded.

***

Some strangers to Athens once asked Diogenes if he would point out to them the great philosopher [meaning Plato]. Diogenes looked around and then led them to the most deserted part of the city and, gesturing to the empty air as one would in formal introduction, said, "May I present to you the great philosopher Plato."

***

Diogenes was once invited to dinner by a wealthy man. During the evening, one of the guests became so outraged by Diogenes' general behaviour that he began to throw bones at him, calling him a "dog." Whereupon Diogenes got up, went to the guest, cocked up his leg and urinated on him.

***

Often when he was begging, Diogenes would be spat on by the people who passed him. Diogenes would ignore this and simply wipe his face with his sleeve. When ridiculed for his passive behaviour, Diogenes said, "Since men endure being wetted by the sea in order to net a mere herring, should I not endure being sprinkled to net my dinner?"

***

Diogenes stood outside a brothel, shouting, "A beautiful whore is like poisoned honey! A beautiful whore is like poisoned honey! A beautiful whore . . . ". Men entering the house threw him a coin or two to shut him up. Eventually Diogenes had collected enough money and he too went into the brothel.

***

Diogenes was asked why he always begged. "To teach people," replied Diogenes. "Oh yes, and what do you teach?" people would ask him scornfully. "Generosity", he replied.

***

Diogenes was once asked why he took money from people. "To show them how they ought to spend their money," he replied.

***

Diogenes was asked, "Tell me, to what do you attribute your great poverty?"

"Hard work," he replied.

"And what advice can you offer the rich?"

"Avoid all the good things in life."

"Why?"

"Because money costs too much. A rich man is far poorer than a poor man."

"How can that be?"

"Because poverty is the only thing money can't buy."

***

Whenever people complimented Diogenes, he would slap himself hard across the face and in self-reproach would cry, "Shame! I must have done something terribly wicked!"

***

A famous athlete was making his triumphal entry into the city after another successful games. As he was carried along, he was unable to tear his eyes away from the many beautiful women among the onlookers.

"Look at our bave victor," remarked Diogenes, "taken captive by every girl he sees."

***

On one bright, clear day, Diogenes was walking up and down the market place, holding a lighted lantern high in front of him and peering around as if searching for something. When people gaped and asked him what he was doing, he replied, "I am looking for an honest man."

***

"It's my fate to steal," pleaded the man who had been caught red-handed by Diogenes.

"Then it is also your fate to be beaten," said Diogenes, hitting him across the head with his staff.

***

Diogenes was strolling through the market place. Suddenly, he called out in despair, "Men! Men! Men! . . . "

Immediately, they came running from all directions: young fops with flowers in their hair; lusty young boys, scantily dressed, hanging off the arms of older men; freemen, their slaves beside them burdened down with groceries, their cheeks bulging with small change; merchants who had left their shops in answer to Diogenes' call.

He looked at them searchingly one by one and with a sad shrug turned to walk away. "I called for men," he said in disgust.

***

The city was under seige. Everyone was busy fortifying the walls - some were carrying stones, others were patching the walls, yet others were building battlements. Diogenes, not wanting to appear idle while everyone around him was working so frantically, diligently rolled his barrel back and forth along the battlements. The city fell.

***

In the midst of serious discourse in the Craneum, Diogenes realised no one was listening. So he instead began to whistle and dance about to attract attention. Immediately, people flocked round him. Diogenes stopped and said, "You idiots, you are not interested to stop and pay attention to wisdom, yet you rush up to observe a foolish display."

***

A heckler in the crowd shouted out, "My mind is not made like that, I can't be bothered with philosophy."

"Why do you bother to live," Diogenes retorted, "if you can't be bothered to live properly?"

***

Very few of Diogenes' disciples had the physical and mental stamina to become cynics. One in particular left the circle, but not before entreating Diogenes to give him one of his books. "You really are a silly fellow," said Diogenes. "Surely you wouldn't have painted figs instead of real ones. And yet you pass over the genuine practice of wisdom and would be satisfied with what is merely written."

***

Someone once asked, "Tell me Diogenes, what does a wise man look like?" At once, Diogenes straightened himself up and stroked his beard.

***

Diogenes was gathering figs and had just filled his bag when a stranger came along the road. "I wouldn't touch this fruit! A man hung himself from the tree just the other day," warned the man, obviously believing the tree to be cursed.

By way of answer, Diogenes sank his teeth into the fig he was holding. Sucking, as one would suck venom from a wound, he proclaimed, "Thus I purify the tree."

Agog, the man stood there marvelling while Diogenes walked off.

***

Passing a stream, Diogenes saw a boy drinking out of his hands. "A child has beaten me in simplicity," he said, throwing away his cup.

***

A young man contemplating marriage sought advice from Diogenes. "Should I marry?"

"Marriage is too soon for a young man"

"Would you have me wait then until I am old."

"Oh no, Marriage is far too late for an old man."

"What am I to do then? I love the girl."

"Love is a luxury no one can afford. It is for those who have nothing better to do."

"What should we be doing then?"

"To seek freedom. But it is not possible to be free if you have a wife and children."

"But having a wife and family is so agreeable."

"Then you see the problem, young man. Freedom would not be so difficult to attain were prison not so sweet."

"You mean to be free is to be alone?"

"We come into the world alone and we die alone. Why, in life, should we be any less alone?"

"To live, then, is terrible."

"No, not to live, but to live in chains."

***

Asked about his worst nightmare, Diogenes said, "Waking to find myself living in a palace and everyone else in barrels.".

***

Once Diogenes was going into the theatre just as everybody was coming out. When asked why he did this, he answered, "Opposition has been my manner. It is what I have been doing all my life."

***

Diogenes was walking backwards across the Agora, affecting a studied indifference to all who laughed at him. Finally, when he had collected a large following he stopped and announced, "You are laughing at me walking just a little distance backwards while you all lead your entire lives arse-about."

"And what's more," he asked, "can you change your way of living as easily as this?" Whereupon, he turned on his heel and walked off in normal fashion.

***

Diogenes was asked, "What is the difference between life and death?

"No difference."

"Well then, why do you remain in this life?"

"Because there is no difference."

***