Would you live in a communist state?
 

Like it or not, the Occupy Wall Street movement has done one thing decisively well: exhuming the concept of class struggle from philosophical tedium into modern awareness. And while many of the movement's aims don't fall explicitly within the regime of communism per se, there remains a prevailing sentiment of disparity between capital-owning and capital-producing (bourgeois & proletariat) classes. Without drastically restructuring American economic policy, we cannot meet (most of) these goals, which begs the question...

Would you live in a communist state?

Bear in mind, communism is defined as the abolition of private property, or the abolition of capital-producing property. If you are unsure of the implications of this statement, I suggest reading Marx's The Communist Manifesto, not a Wikipedia article. NOTE: The modern interpretation of communism is very, very different than what Karl Marx envisioned...where even laissez-faire systems implemented in the PRC can come to call themselves "communists."

Karl Marx originally envisaged a rich industrialized country for his doctrine and not a peasant based society like imperialist Russia. He probably had Great Britain or Germany in mind when he wrote his Communist Manifesto in the 19th century. If he were around today he`d probably be looking at the USA as the perfect model for a communist society.....its an interesting concept.

But the USA is no longer in a period of industrialization...we've been a consumer service economy since the 1980s. Manufacturing jobs are virtually nonexistent, and though they are on the rebound, they still represent less than 10% of the American work force.

However, we still have a small number of people who make money using money (rather than wage-labour), which essentially dominates the gulf between capital-owners and capital-producers and is a primary focus of the protesters in the Occupy Wall Street movement.

I used industrialized in the past tense as in the country is already industrialized, sure you`re a consumer service economy like most of the western nations now, but the point is that despite the recent economic downturn which has hit the USA hard, the country still serves as a great example for the Manifesto, you have great disparities between rich and poor and a society that is highly educated and politically and socially aware, just the attributes needed for a communist society to succeed. Whether an economist would agree with me is another matter though.

I don't think the economic downturn has hit the US any harder than Europe. We just don't have as large a safety net for the working class as western Europe does.

I should say, I didn't really want to discuss whether (or where) communism works, but whether communism works for you. As in, how many of you would be willing to forgo your material luxuries to ensure that everyone got a piece of the pie?

Well I spent some time in the Soviet Union when I was younger and studied there for a few months as part of my uni programme and despite being very interested with the country and the society, the word GRIM is what I would`ve described the lifestyle there as.

In answer to your question, well despite believing that man will never be equal, I`d still give up some of my luxuries to help my fellow human being, so the answer is yes. Over the last couple of years in the UK, we`ve had the logo of "The Big Society" where each individual is being prompted to take on a bigger role in society and thus taking the burden away from the government.

Q: Would you live in a communist state?
A: No ****ing way. No to Eurocommunism, no to anarcho-communism, no to any variation including "Lenin"...

If it worked, I'd totally go for anarcho-communism. People evolved to live in small family groups anyway. Living in a city of millions of people where you have to rely on a supermarket to feed yourself? That's not natural. Seriously, for any of you libertarian types who think that you're "self-reliant", imagine what would happen if all the supermarkets and convenience stores all closed down and stopped selling food. How many millions would starve just because of the loss of Farmfresh?

I would be willing to be part of a communist system only if we did it right and it could be guaranteed that it wouldn't get super corrupt and ****ed up down the road. I've always liked the idea of communism, but the problem is true communism has never been more than an idea. Who's to say that we won't twist communism into some sort of dictatorship as well?

You could be right though. As far as I know communism has never been adopted by a nation as educated or as wealthy as the US. I'm willing to give it a try (though the entire right will undoubtedly close their ears as soon as they hear the dirty word).

Do you live in a rural location?

Every communist system has been corrupt and always bred dictators, but if a state that was already educated, wealthy and transparent adopted it then it could feasibly work.

Nope. I'm just as in thrall to the evils of Farmfresh as anyone else. I'm too lazy to be a survivalist unfortunately.

Ah. See, this is a grave misconception. I might have erred in using the word "state" to describe it, because a truly Marxist community would have no centralized government, and absolutely no authoritarian control. Communism has been unfortunately tied inexorably to authoritarianism because revolutionary communism establishes a new sociopolitical hierarchy; communism in the purest sense is a teleological conclusion to the development of wealth (viz. freedom in Hegelian terms).

Feudalism -> Industrialism/Capitalism -> [Socialism] -> Communism

I am very left wing, and for elements of socialism/communism. But, I feel pure communism is naive. It entrusts a communal rule, which entrusts people to get along selfishly for their own betterment.

Which, frankly, doesn't work. What happens then is for the four out of five guys/gals who might be getting along swell(and that's an optimistic sample itself), there's one who will break the rules, and takes over...

Then again the Republic has the EXACT same problem, it's just more gradual. If you don't believe me check into the name: Hitler, Adolph, or further into the concept of a 30 day marshal law.

I however would love to live in a state that has:

A) Free education(no financial aid as it's just a way for bankers to siphon money from the government to person to bank to government.)

B) Free transportation.

C) Free standardized housing.

D) An organized, and systematic employment system(I volley for forcing all jobs under 12$ to forfeit their application system to the government.). one of which would guarantee employment to people applying rather than weak substitutes like unemployment insurance.

E) Cheap healthcare/insurance. (Plus, the illegalization of Religious, and private hospitals).

F) An active non-apathetic government that utilizes common tasks of improving cities, transportation, etc. Filling in the job gaps with productive mutually life increasing means.

G) A gap on the military as it's being misused(as in, limited membership), is underfunded. There are too many soldiers, and too many people signing up for the economic benefits. Perhaps if the actual internal employment system was as open, focused, and productive we may have a very stable, productive economy.

Some of these values may be construed as very left-wing, or communist, so I suppose I'd like a variation, but feel the full elimination of property ownership is extreme, and unrealistic.

P.S. Occupy is a ****ing joke, and has accomplished nothing. It's nothing more than a ton of upper middle class university students(future business class) indulging in vanity protest hipster retroism.

Marx was dialectically sodomized by marginalism. The most intelligent left-wingers (the real leftists, from my personal point of view) of the time, like Eduard Bernstein, realized the truth and they looked for better ways of political action.

Marx, as an economist, is nothing. Forget him. The real reference is John Maynard Keynes, and, in certain aspects, John Stuart Mill.

When East Germany was turned communist in the 1940s it was far more industrialized than the UK or Germany was in the 1840s. I guess though you could argue that in the East German case the communism was forced upon the country by an external power rather than rising up within itself.

Anyway, my feelings towards communism is that any single concentration of power, such as that of the communist parties in all communist revolutions to date, will almost inevitably lead to corruption. The only exception to this rule is probably the Paris Commune of 1871, but since it lasted for just a short time, it's hard to analyse its potential for success. But that specific case was closer to the anarchism of Mikhail Bakunin than the communism of Karl Marx, so maybe it's not relevant to compare to the other revolutions.

Guh. This is a prime example of why Communism disgusts me so thoroughly.

Whether you're talking Leninists or Anarchists - they are all obsessed with ideological purity. The level of dogma present is just jaw dropping....



Even if we ignore this tendency on the micro-level, it's frequency on the national level is jaw dropping - trotsky & stalin, tito & stalin, sino-soviet split, sino-albanian split, the gang of four, etc....

Could you expound upon this a little more? I'm fairly competent with Marx's dialectic progression but a little shaky on the economic precepts behind it. The 1844 Manuscripts show Marx's dialectic but not much beyond that.

Which is probably why communism hasn't worked that well in the past...ideologues and philosophers writing economic law sounds absolutely terrifying to me.

...That's one of the most completely random out of context youtube clips I've ever seen in my life.

Especially when you consider the split the Republican party he seems to love so much is undergoing it's own split as we speak.

Yes, but the Christian Identity League might just mend ways with the KKK!

:laughing: I had to look up the Christian Identity League. Those people sound like winners. It's nice to know that I'm apparently descended from the ancient Israelites, though, and that modern "Jews" are imposters.

Eh, the Mormons believe it.

I've always considered communism as the religion of "no-god", or at least that's what it has devolved into(as with most religions) regardless of how it started. And instead of idols they worship positions within the party.

I'm a very, very left-leaning person, and capitalism's one of the few subjects that disgusts me to the point where I would probably punch those that preach it if they tried anything on me, but I'm no communist. I'm behind the State offering things like welfare and benefits, but I don't think they should take away our individual lives and replace them with any kind of indentured service to them. I know there's far more to communism than that, but I don't support the concept of the state controlling our liberties.

Never, I am an American to the very last bone in my body, besides, Communism doesn't work, the state eventually falls.

To the extent that the evils of Capitalism are adjusted against by more and more regulation aimed at protecting The Public from rapacious corporations who think nothing of poisoning the public's environment, in order to make a buck, living in California IS a little bit like living in a grim Communist State, as Communist States have developed historically (not Marxism).

Marx saw the dilema of the modern worker as being forced to be a product himself, taking no joy in his labor and working without direct satisfaction of contributing to progress of mankind. Marx saw that the proletariat was separated from job satisfaction by the business arrangement that duped him.

My 40 years in Industry was exactly that: somewhat like a sentence in a Gulag with no hope for an appeal to the Governor for a pardon. Then, once retired, my hard-fought-for benefits were commodities to be traded themselves under the Rule of Law. So much for the right to confer in good faith and negotiate. I lost ground. All done legally however, as I NEVER DID REALLY HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONFER IN GOOD FAITH. It was just a dog and pony show to keep us from picking up sniper rifles, called The Brown Act, which apparently had a shelf life, called: "until it cramped Industries profit."


The American Labor Movement was at one time prime for Communism and in fact inroads were made into Unions by Communists then, but the Gov't was idealogically opposed to anything that wasn't ultimately stroking their beloved Capitalism, which is what this Country stands for, and now exports -violently- worldwide.

I was once just such a Political Technician: green fatigues, M-16; flak-jacket and helmet: the whole bit. Back in the late sixties the gov't was giving those Political Technician jobs away.

All you had to do was pass a draft physical. But I digress.

What is the difference between the Social Engineering of Marxism, and "adjusted" Capitalism?

To the proletariat: no difference, though under real Marxism, there would be a difference. That is however, what "living in/under a Communist State," seems to be like however.

To the 99%'ers: Insider Trading Congress; Captains of Industry, in Multi-National Corporations: the difference is everything.

It's free reign, but backed by the State, and called Laissez-faire.

So what ultimately brought the end to John Locke's economic vision (right for commoners to own land, and profit from the work of their hands, etc, as opposed to serfdom and indentured servanthood, etc) was not Communism, but rot from within.

Now the dead horse of Capitalism is laying in the street being beaten upon in the hopes that it will rise one last time and drag the wagon ten more feet (in China). Isn't THAT ironic?

Would I live in a Communistic State? You mean even moreso?

I suspect my children's children may find out what that is like, if the Islamic Jihadists don't blow the planet up first. But personally, likely I'll be taking a long dirt nap before the US "actually calls itself" Communistic. After another round of Facism probably, which will be called Americanism, right?

is there even such a thing as a Communist country these days?

@ Sonar1

Honestly, your post was kinda ranty and I'm not completely sure I understand you, but I pretty much feel your disillusionment with capitalism and the whole "American Dream" is right on.

I don't think communism ever worked, there was always someone who had all of the power (Mao, Stalin, ect...)

Aleksandr Solzenitsyn (one of the few reputable Soviet-era novelists) said something similar. When asked why he thought Communism failed Russia, his response was simply "Men have forgotten God."

I didn't understand what he meant up until a few weeks ago (I thought he was just showing solidarity with the institutionalized Orthodox Church), but it completely clicks for me now.

How I interpret it: trying to live your life entirely in the ethical realm doesn't really work. Humans need something beyond that.

1,000 apologies. I was up late with insomnia.

yes that rant was just the tip of the iceburg of my stream of consciousness style.

You guys will need to keep me honest. :soapbox: