Muslim/Islamic Views on Women
 

Just something to say before I start. I'm just looking for opinions and personal experience on this subject, please don't let this thread be closed due to hateful comments.

Ok, I've been wondering this for awhile and I've yet to go to an Islamic country or read the Quaran. Are women really viewed as inferior to men in Islamic countries? I've been starting to look into the happenings of the uprisings in the middle east and how women have been treated. There has been a lot of talk of how women have been sexually assaulted and harassed in those countries, but I can't help but feel the fact that there is so much unrest in that part of the world and that leads to crimes against women. Why? I'm not sure, but in third world countries and in countries suffering civil wars there seems to be a lot of sexual assaults and crimes against women.

I've talked to a few Muslims in my life and they seem like everyone else, but with different beliefs. Granted that these conversations and meetings were short, and the ones I've met seemed liked generally happy and good willed. So, is it just the extremists and the general unrest in Islamic countries or is it that they really view women just as objects of sexual desire?

Please, if I've said anything offensive or uneducated, please correct and educate me. I don't want to be a sheep who follows lazily along to whatever the US media says.

I'm not sure why you would think they view their women as just sexual objects when their women wear that garb. I can't recall the technical name for it now. Do you think their eyes is good enough to say they are going to judge a woman by her looks and treat her like sexual object?

It does appear that they treat their women as inferior but I don't recall reading anything in the Quran that would justify that treatment.

I will double check and edit this post if I find something related to it in my Quran.

i remember reading some sura's that say you can hit a woman if she gets out of line, and also women are something like cattle, to be owned

well, the syaria' divorce laws are unequal - it's hard for a woman to divorce a man but not vice versa

Are you sure? With the whole owning thing it pertains to being in a marriage since the husband is deemed the provider and protector.

you can get rid of cattle pretty fast

Women are officialy held in equal esteem and importance in Islam. The whole 'but they make them wear burqas and control them!' argument is more partriarchal meddling than religious instruction.

So, it must be the fact that Islamic countries are in a general state of unrest and the fact that women's rights just haven't been established. I'm not talking about burqas and the conservative attire, but the fact that women in the few Islamic countries I've read about aren't able to receive the same schooling as men and aren't able to obtain a driver's license.

Again, that's more patriarchal oppression, although he Qu'ran can be interpreted as saying that women don't need schooling (I think it lists women as taking up a more inspirational role than an intellectual one. Like the Bible, the Qu'ran is interpreted differently by different people).

I would think that the subject of women's status in countries you refer to has more to do with the non-seperation of church and state and references to religious documents influencing state law. I mean, if you look at it, the Bible has just as many references to the inferiority of women/women as objects.

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Eccles. 25:22)

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. "(NIV, 1 Timothy 2:11-12)

And so on. Even in non Islam dominated countries, you still have women being paid less then men, not promoted due to the fact they are women, etc.

Ít just seems to come down to the fact that the more a majority of a country believe in one particular religion and if there is no seperation of church and state..well things such as the mistreatment of women can be justified by religious documents. It then becomes the "Word of God" and therefore the law. What is more interesting to me is what about the countries that do seperate church and state. What justifies women's lower status in these places?

^^because men are pigs, usually

My understanding of this statement is that women wear burquas to shield their bodies from the stares of random men. At home in the presence of family, women dress just as fashionably as women in the countries we're from. They wear the long black garments to protect their beauty from the hungry and wandering eyes of men. Similarly, when it comes to segregation, it's not that women are being segregated in restaurants and things, it's that the single men are. Of course, this is a limited understanding based on very little contact and information with women of the associated religions.

Hah, you're from or near the Midlands Pedestrian, aren't you? It's pretty easy to pick up a basic understanding of Islam if you're near Birmingham.

Islamic views on women are many and varied. The Qur'an states that men have more physical strength than women (something which is physiologically true) and that men are the protectors of women, among other things. I don't have a Qur'an to hand and so can't give more detail.

Women are ,in the Qur'an, commanded to cover their 'awrah, or cover themselves in accordance with the laws of modesty. The idea is that only a woman's immediate family (including a husband, children and step-children) should see their 'private' parts. The actual practice of this varies: some cultures, such as in Malaysia and some Indonesian countries, the simple hijab is the norm alongside normal long-sleeved clothing. In others, the chador (Iranian cloak) or jilbab (long coat) or abaya (a long dress which can also serve as both a dress and an outer coat) are mandatory, along with the all covering khimar (a long all-in-one thing which covers all but the face or niqaab (full face veil). A combination of cultural norms, legal requirements but also personal choice allow women to pick whatever they feel necessary.

With regard as to whether Islam respects women, views vary. I'll find an essay I did and get back to you...

...Western Canada.

Oh, hah, you confused me when you said you'd been to the same Elbow concert as me. I probably read that wrong though, sorry!

Oh, no, I had. I was in the neighborhood this past March.

Malaysian muslim women usually wear head-scarves as well, though this isn't mandatory

covering up their "aurat" isn't really mandatory as well, some still dress sexily

One of my best friends is Muslim, and his mom doesn't wear a burqa of get too strict on covering herself up. He stills fasts for Ramadam, still prays at the Mosque on Fridays (at least when he's out if school) and still refuses to eat meat that isn't halal. Like many religions, it's partly people picking what they think is right out of the religion and leaving out what is wrong.

Oh please; why is there this obsession to bring up whatever shortcomings there are in the Occident as a manner of excusing the radical differences between the Occident & Islam?

Yeah, the glass ceiling exists - and we could debate whether or not any boss ever says, "Yeah, she's qualified, a hard worker, and even though promoting her would result in myself getting more money, - she's a woman, so I won't." but to compare that to the veil? Christ - that's a stretch. That's like comparing the removal of a hang nail to a field amputation. Both involve pain and removing a bit of your body, but they're still different.

No. Some Islamic nations are in a state of unrest; such as thoughs partaking in the awkwardly titled Arab Spring. Others, such as Saudi Arabia, remain paragons of stability, and remain strictly sexist. While there is variation on women's status in Islamic nations, when we look at - say - Islam in North Africa, the Middle East, Persia, Subsaharan Africa, South Asia, etc.... there's way, way too many similarities regarding the treatment of women to say extreme subjugation isn't the norm in Islam.

As with the Bible, you can read the Quran as you want so that it conforms with your world view. If you wanna be a misogynic asshole who treats women like shit, you can justification for that in the Quran. Likewise, if you believe in equal treatment, you can also find grounds for that.

Yeah but it's more than just your world view when your government starts cherry picking parts of it and making their people be accountable by those standards

One of the major issues with Muslim countries is the integration of religion with state. Someone once said to me that Saudi Arabia's the worst country to have a good night out in, because you can't drink and can't pick up any girls, because you have to play by their rules, Muslim or not. And the reason you can't pick up girls? Islam is ideally a religion that's protective towards women. In a way, it's sexist and oppressive, as it suggests that they're unable to be their own people without a man to lead them and that they aren't capable of doing many of the things men are. But in another way, it's also good to women, as it basically teaches of respect for them. The fundamental idea of the burqa is that it stops women being attractive to any random blokes in the street, which in a way gives women a hell of a lot more respect as people than the bullshyte they've got on them in the Bible. Traditional Buddhism is similar, as they're both about putting restrictions on women, but supposedly for their own good and to garner them respect. Sadly, it's a bit of an outdated approach now, and in feminist mode, I'd edge towards saying that the most familar forms of modern Islam aren't exactly keeping up with the idea of respect.

Always good to throw in a Hitchens video:

Again, why this obsession with the false equivalencies? The vast majority of the horribly misogynistic passages in the Bible are in the Old Testament; and all major denominations of Christianity have always placed more emphasis on the New Testament. Notice that when Christian organizations developed in geographic isolation; such as, say, Coptic Christians or Oriental Orthodox, their theology developed was - such as that in the West - focused on the New Testament rather than the old.

Contrast this to Islam, which has produced oppression for women everywhere; from China to Morocco, Chechnya to India, the Philippines to Nigeria. That was see this oppression across all major sects of Islam, when coupled with Geographic diversity and the diversity of cultures prior to the introduction of Islam, tells us - quite clearly - that, yes, Islam is a fundamentally sexist religion.

wtf? The bullseye the Bible puts on them? Really? Please, please state what you mean.

There are many passages in the Old Testament that just don't seem right, (I wouldn't throw it under the bus because of it) maybe it's not so apparent but when one reads the stories of the OT and looks at the bigger picture, (not just a passage here or there) women do have import roles. imo the idea of equality of women we have today starts in the Old Testament.

I just played around with spelling of bull****, because I'm cool like that. What I was saying is that the Bible doesn't even try to be fair and equitable to women. Yes, there's the whole 'he created man and women in his own image'. Yes, it frequently states that we're all important to god, regardless of gender. But then read some of the letters in the New Testament and some of the treatments of women in the Old. Jesus didn't have any female disciples, despite having multiple followers. Women are supposedly not allowed to speak in church or unless spoken to anywhere. Hell, women were sort of even blamed for the entire downfall and sin of man. Sure, Islam also has plenty of sexism and oppressive actions in it. But at least they try to do it for the right cause. Assuming that the Qu'ran was written by a man (I know Muslims believe it's directly the word of Allah, but I don't so I'm referring to the man that I believe penned it) he was of course living in a much older and constrasting culture to the one we live in today. Due to the nature of pretty much any patriarchy, women would have inevitably been used as objects, servants and lower beings by many people. So by setting up this whole system, he, at least in his mind, tried to give women a bit of freedom and fairness.

^^Mary Magdalene is a disciple of Christ

As with much of the Christ myth, she too is a debatable subject and possibly never existed either.
The Word Magda is a title meaning "Great Lady" just like Christ (Khristós) means "the Anointed One". The Queen of Sheba (King Solomon's mistress) was also called The Magda.

Meanwhile, there's some guy somewhere jacking off to a pinup of a woman in a burqa.

Personal experience?

I think y'all should watch Persopolis.

Works for me . . .
http://flaggingheadquarters.com/wp-c...Sexy-Burqa.jpg

there are some porn of Malay women in head scarves that I jack off to

Where'd my link go?

What link?

I never saw a link.

it was a pic of a chick in a burka
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...ig48YIKfzSWOTl

I still see the picture in the original post.

no you don't, you see what I just posted