London riots

Sneer · 08-10-2011, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojopinuk

I was in London on Friday and arranged to meet with my friends cousin. He picked us up, invited us into his house, let us take a shower etc after travelling through the night on the coach and then we went and caught something to eat in a little cafe in Hackney. I left on Saturday morning, so just a matter of hours before people really started taking to the streets with force and it is genuinely rather upsetting to be at home watching the very same street I had just left behind being pulled to pieces over the next couple of nights. My friends cousin and his girlfriend had, by this point, locked themselves inside their house.

I don't doubt that theres root causes for unrest and reasons to be angry but I'm sorry, I just won't accept that there are reasons for this kind of behaviour. Certain sources will offer the shooting of the young man days previously by police officers as a "reason" for all this, most sources blame the general state of the country politically and economically for young people up and down the country feeling desperate and angry. There are very few options out there, I understand that well. It is annoying, it can really get in your head and make you mad but none of these things are excuses for what people are doing.

Breaking into, setting fire to and robbing businesses has nothing to do with politics. Attacking people in the street has nothing to do with politics. Confronting and attacking police officers in large numbers, burning down peoples businesses and homes and knowingly looking to scare and intimidate have nothing to do with politics. It's just violence and criminality. Watching all of this unfold, and reading all I could about it, in no way made me feel proud to be English. I dont want to say it made me ashamed, but you're damn right I'm ashamed of those responsible and the harm they are doing to our country.

I do however think it's important that we take any positives we can. Groups of people out on the streets preparing for more nights of rioting from these morons, vowing to defend their communities, may be a strategy with many obvious flaws but it certainly is admirable. Reports of elderly immigrants chasing rioters from their premises and their businesses, defending what it is theirs and the communities around them, while British National citizens are doing all they can to tear it down are truly heartwarming stories to read. London restaurant owners and chefs chasing yobs with rolling pins while finding customers safe places to stay or getting them out safely is another example of good, honest people pulling together.

And these people are true legends. I have so much respect for the large numbers of people who felt the best way to respond to this the very next morning was to get back out on the streets, pick up a broom and start to clean up their city.

These dim-witted, thieving, selfish, delusional, misguided, mind-numblingly stupid fucking stains on humanity make me feel somewhat ashamed of this country, but the large majority of everyone else rallying together around it remind me why I am still proud to live here.

Well said dude

Ben Butler · 08-11-2011, 08:38 AM

Although I don't condone the violence in London and other parts of the UK, to put it down as simply being 'pure criminality', as some Conservative MPs have stated is just plain stupid. This is just letting the goverment who make the policies off the hook. There has to be a reason for the violence.

For me, there are things like poverty (The Big Society), education, lack of jobs and general social policies to blame. These people obviously have to take responsibility for their actions but nothing will be sorted if politicians and the general public, simply brand them as 'thugs' or whatever derogatory term they use.

It will just make them want to revolt and hate them even more. The people going out on the streets with brooms doesn't fill me with confidence either, ok they are helping their communties but it's almost like they are saying, the state don't sort it out so we will! Conservative goverments are just bad for this country, get Labour in fast.

Sneer · 08-11-2011, 10:29 AM

Edinburgh's in the midst of anarchy now too.

Unknown Soldier · 08-11-2011, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Butler

Although I don't condone the violence in London and other parts of the UK, to put it down as simply being 'pure criminality', as some Conservative MPs have stated is just plain stupid. This is just letting the goverment who make the policies off the hook. There has to be a reason for the violence.

For me, there are things like poverty (The Big Society), education, lack of jobs and general social policies to blame. These people obviously have to take responsibility for their actions but nothing will be sorted if politicians and the general public, simply brand them as 'thugs' or whatever derogatory term they use.

It will just make them want to revolt and hate them even more. The people going out on the streets with brooms doesn't fill me with confidence either, ok they are helping their communties but it's almost like they are saying, the state don't sort it out so we will! Conservative goverments are just bad for this country, get Labour in fast.

In case you haven`t realized it yet, most of the world is still in a dire economic crisis and whether Labour, Conservatives or whichever other party you care to name is in power the outcome is still going to be the same! That means a lack of money all round etc.... and to shoot the blame at the current government sounds rather lame really.

In general the violent acts do have a reason behind them, but given the fact that we live in a civilized society, the population has the moral obligation to behave in a civilized manner and that is why we have a ballot box and freedom of speech for people to express their views and opinions, and gradually make changes. Obviously, a certain percentage of the population doesn`t share this civilized view and sees violent disorder as the way forward, but at the end of the day they get nowhere thankfully, but sadly they do help to disrupt the lives of normal law abidding citizens and the damage they cause just creates and even bigger problem for the country.

LoathsomePete · 08-11-2011, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu

Edinburgh's in the midst of anarchy now too.

Oh the humanity!

EvilChuck · 08-11-2011, 03:03 PM

British PM David Cameron considers ban on Twitter and Facebook during U.K. riots | The Cutline - Yahoo! News

I see that David Cameron and the rest are talking about trying to regulate twitter, facebook, BBM and the rest, in order to stop anyone who tries to incite violence or riots from doing so.

I'm sorry, but this is pathetic. Its exactly what I assumed would happen, the real social issues affecting the youth of today are going to be ignored because we are too busy burying our heads in the sand, pretending that in actual fact everything is fine and this is just a case of idiots causing destruction and mayhem. Now of course, there is a large percentage of people who were just joining in for the fu and the free stuff, but the fact is these things don't 'just happen'. There has to be enough anger within people in order for this level of mayhem to start.

I swear, people in their late 20's, early 30's and above have no idea what people from rough areas under the age of 25 actually think and feel about the country. All through this rioting all I have heard from people in the street and on tv is that 'they should be ashamed of themselves' and 'how could they do this to their own communities'.

In order to feel ashamed of what they are doing to their communities, they surely first need to feel like they are part of the commmunity, and need to feel pride in their community. In reality, what everyone else called 'their community' boils down to being just 'where they live' to these kids. Their 'community spirit' was in evidence all through the rioting, one steps up and smashes a window, then disappears into a crowd of people who then disperse and the perpetrators get away, it was in evidence through the BBM broadcast that went out that said something along the lines of 'It doesnt matter what ends you're from, we're hitting xyz place and all are welcome'.

They were willing to put aside any gang related differences in order to pull together and become one massive youth community, and people dont like it because they were neither prepared for it, nor had any idea that the kids could manage this on their own.

A woman I work with said they should have respect, and when I replied 'where is your respect for them' she said 'respect is earned, they dont deserve respect'. This attitude is something I myself have experienced, I'm not talking about respect for my achievments because I am still young, and have my whole life ahead of me, but basic respect, common courtesy, that a few years ago I didnt get from people of a certain age just because I was young. I'm talking about stuff like holding a door for me when I'm walking behind them, saying please and thank you, stuff like that. But you can be guaranteed that they expect me to extend those courtesies to them, purely because they are older than me.

Show the youth some respect, they are not complete idiots as we have seen in the last few days. Right under the noses of the politicians, the police, the parents, these young people have managed to organise mass chaos, the level of organisation shown surely deserves some respect.

Give people a sense of pride in their communities, by actually having something for them to be proud of. All of these kids that are being arrested, have them be involved in the rebuilding process of the buildings they have destroyed and they will feel a sense of ownership and attachment to the places, which is more likely to prevent this from happening in future than banning twitter is.

And make a system where it is not more financially viable for a person to claim as many benefits as possible rather than get a job. Get people out in the real world, with jobs that they work hard at, and then they themselves, and will feel like they are part of the community.

Again, I'd like to make it clear I dont condone the rioting and looting. But I do support the cause that this should be bringing to the attention of the nation.

Paedantic Basterd · 08-11-2011, 03:25 PM

These things do just happen though. Canada got mad about a hockey game. Senseless violence exists and is prevalent.

EvilChuck · 08-11-2011, 05:12 PM

I've just read an article by Russell Brand of all people that perfectly says what I feel about these riots.

Quote:

Big Brother isn't watching you

Dismissing rioters as mindless is futile rhetoric. However unacceptable the UK riots, we need to ask why they are happening

I no longer live in London. I've been transplanted to Los Angeles by a combination of love and money; such good fortune and opportunity, in both cases, you might think disqualify me from commenting on matters in my homeland. Even the results of Britain's Got Ice-Factor may lay prettily glistening beyond my remit now that I am self-banished.

To be honest when I lived in England I didn't really care too much for the fabricated theatrics of reality TV. Except when I worked for Big Brother, then it was my job to slosh about in the amplified trivia of the housemates/inmates. Sometimes it was actually quite bloody interesting. Particularly the year that Nadia won. She was the Portuguese transsexual. Remember? No? Well, that's the nature of the medium; as it whizzes past the eyes it seems very relevant but the malady of reality TV stars is that their shelf life expires, like dog years, by the power of seven. To me it seems as if Nadia's triumph took place during the silver jubilee, we had a street party.

Early in that series there was an incident of excitement and high tension. The testosteronal, alpha figures of the house – a Scot called Jason and a Londoner called Victor – incited by the teasing conditions and a camp lad called Marco (wow, it's all coming back) kicked off in the house, smashed some crockery and a few doors. Police were called, tapes were edited and the carnival rolled on. When I was warned to be discreet on-air about the extent of the violence, I quoted a British first-world-war general who, reflecting on the inability of his returning troops to adapt to civilian life, said: "You cannot rouse the animal in man then expect it to be put aside at a moment's notice."

"Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing we want you to say the opposite of," said the channel's representative.

This week's riots are sad and frightening and, if I have by virtue of my temporary displacement forgone the right to speak about the behaviour of my countrymen, then this is gonna be irksome. I mean even David Cameron came back from his holiday. Eventually. The Tuscan truffles lost their succulence when the breaking glass became too loud to ignore. Then dopey ol' Boris came cycling back into the London clutter with his spun gold hair and his spun **** logic as it became apparent that the holiday was over.

In fact, it isn't my absence from the territory of London that bothers me; it's my absence from the economic class that is being affected that itches in my gut because, as I looked at the online incident maps, the boroughs that were suffering all, for me, had some resonance. I've lived in Dalston, Hackney, Elephant, Camden and Bethnal Green. I grew up round Dagenham and Romford and, whilst I could never claim to be from the demographic most obviously affected, I feel guilty that I'm not there now.

I feel proud to be English, proud to be a Londoner (all right, an Essex boy), never more so than since being in exile, and I naturally began to wonder what would make young people destroy their communities.

I have spoken to mates in London and Manchester and they sound genuinely frightened and hopeless, and the details of their stories place this outbreak beyond the realms of any political idealism or rationalisation. But I can't, from my ivory tower in the Hollywood Hills, compete with the understandable yet futile rhetoric, describing the rioters as mindless. Nor do I want to dwell on the sadness of our beautiful cities being tarnished and people's shops and livelihoods, sometimes generations old, being immolated. The tragic and inevitable deaths ought to be left for eulogies and grieving. Tariq Jahan has spoken so eloquently from his position of painful proximity, with such compassion, that nearly all else is redundant.

The only question I can legitimately ask is: why is this happening? Mark Duggan's death has been badly handled but no one is contesting that is a reason for these conflagrations beyond the initial flash of activity in Tottenham. I've heard Theresa May and the Old Etonians whose hols have been curtailed (many would say they're the real victims) saying the behaviour is "unjustifiable" and "unacceptable". Wow! Thanks guys! What a wonderful use of the planet's fast-depleting oxygen resources. Now that's been dealt with can we move on to more taxing matters such as whether or not Jack The Ripper was a ladies' man. And what the hell do bears get up to in those woods?

However "unacceptable" and "unjustifiable" it might be, it has happened so we better accept it and, whilst we can't justify it, we should kick around a few neurons and work out why so many people feel utterly disconnected from the cities they live in.

Unless on the news tomorrow it's revealed that there's been a freaky "criminal creating" chemical leak in London and Manchester and Liverpool and Birmingham that's causing young people to spontaneously and simultaneously violate their environments – in which case we can park the ol' brainboxes, stop worrying and get on with the football season, but I suspect there hasn't – we have, as human beings, got a few things to consider together.

I should here admit that I have been arrested for criminal damage for my part in anti-capitalist protest earlier in this decade. I often attended protests and then, in my early 20s, and on drugs, I enjoyed it when the protests lost direction and became chaotic, hostile even. I was intrigued by the anarchist "Black bloc", hooded and masked, as, in retrospect, was their agenda, but was more viscerally affected by the football "casuals" who'd turn up because the veneer of the protest's idealistic objective gave them the perfect opportunity to wreck stuff and have a row with the Old Bill.

That was never my cup of tea though. For one thing, policemen are generally pretty good fighters and second, it registered that the accent they shouted at me with was closer to my own than that of some of those singing about the red flag making the wall of plastic shields between us seem thinner.

I found those protests exciting, yes, because I was young and a bit of a twerp but also, I suppose, because there was a void in me. A lack of direction, a sense that I was not invested in the dominant culture, that government existed not to look after the interests of the people it was elected to represent but the big businesses that they were in bed with.

I felt that, and I had a mum who loved me, a dad who told me that nothing was beyond my reach, an education, a grant from Essex council (to train as an actor of all things!!!) and several charities that gave me money for maintenance. I shudder to think how disenfranchised I would have felt if I had been deprived of that long list of privileges.

That state of deprivation though is, of course, the condition that many of those rioting endure as their unbending reality. No education, a weakened family unit, no money and no way of getting any. JD Sports is probably easier to desecrate if you can't afford what's in there and the few poorly paid jobs there are taken. Amidst the bleakness of this social landscape, squinting all the while in the glare of a culture that radiates ultraviolet consumerism and infrared celebrity. That daily, hourly, incessantly enforces the egregious, deceitful message that you are what you wear, what you drive, what you watch and what you watch it on, in livid, neon pixels. The only light in their lives comes from these luminous corporate messages. No wonder they have their ****ing hoods up.

I remember Cameron saying "hug a hoodie" but I haven't seen him doing it. Why would he? Hoodies don't vote, they've realised it's pointless, that whoever gets elected will just be a different shade of the "we don't give a toss about you" party.

Politicians don't represent the interests of people who don't vote. They barely care about the people who do vote. They look after the corporations who get them elected. Cameron only spoke out against News International when it became evident to us, US, the people, not to him (like Rose West, "He must've known") that the newspapers Murdoch controlled were happy to desecrate the dead in the pursuit of another exploitative, distracting story.

Why am I surprised that these young people behave destructively, "mindlessly", motivated only by self-interest? How should we describe the actions of the city bankers who brought our economy to its knees in 2010? Altruistic? Mindful? Kind? But then again, they do wear suits, so they deserve to be bailed out, perhaps that's why not one of them has been imprisoned. And they got away with a lot more than a few ****ing pairs of trainers.

These young people have no sense of community because they haven't been given one. They have no stake in society because Cameron's mentor Margaret Thatcher told us there's no such thing.

If we don't want our young people to tear apart our communities then don't let people in power tear apart the values that hold our communities together.

As you have by now surely noticed, I don't know enough about politics to ponder a solution and my hands are sticky with blood money from representing corporate interests through film, television and commercials, venerating, through my endorsements and celebrity, products and a lifestyle that contributes to the alienation of an increasingly dissatisfied underclass. But I know, as we all intuitively know, the solution is all around us and it isn't political, it is spiritual. Gandhi said: "Be the change you want to see in the world."

In this simple sentiment we can find hope, as we can in the efforts of those cleaning up the debris and ash in bonhomous, broom-wielding posses. If we want to live in a society where people feel included, we must include them, where they feel represented, we must represent them and where they feel love and compassion for their communities then we, the members of that community, must find love and compassion for them.

As we sweep away the mistakes made in the selfish, nocturnal darkness we must ensure that, amidst the broken glass and sadness, we don't sweep away the youth lost amongst the shards in the shadows cast by the new dawn.

Russell Brand is donating his fee for this article to a clean-up project.

UK riots: Big Brother isn't watching you | UK news | The Guardian

Buzzov*en · 08-11-2011, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

These things do just happen though. Canada got mad about a hockey game. Senseless violence exists and is prevalent.

exactly.

Freebase Dali · 08-11-2011, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu

Edinburgh's in the midst of anarchy now too.

I was just coming in here to post that vid. Not to be insensitive or anything, but a little humor to brighten the situation up never hurts.

08-11-2011, 10:29 AM	#63 (permalink)
Sneer Let it drip Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5,430	Edinburgh's in the midst of anarchy now too. __________________ LastFM Sneer's Emporium of Sound Fright Team radio show

08-11-2011, 03:03 PM	#66 (permalink)
EvilChuck #based Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: (Near) London, England Posts: 443	British PM David Cameron considers ban on Twitter and Facebook during U.K. riots \| The Cutline - Yahoo! News I see that David Cameron and the rest are talking about trying to regulate twitter, facebook, BBM and the rest, in order to stop anyone who tries to incite violence or riots from doing so. I'm sorry, but this is pathetic. Its exactly what I assumed would happen, the real social issues affecting the youth of today are going to be ignored because we are too busy burying our heads in the sand, pretending that in actual fact everything is fine and this is just a case of idiots causing destruction and mayhem. Now of course, there is a large percentage of people who were just joining in for the fu and the free stuff, but the fact is these things don't 'just happen'. There has to be enough anger within people in order for this level of mayhem to start. I swear, people in their late 20's, early 30's and above have no idea what people from rough areas under the age of 25 actually think and feel about the country. All through this rioting all I have heard from people in the street and on tv is that 'they should be ashamed of themselves' and 'how could they do this to their own communities'. In order to feel ashamed of what they are doing to their communities, they surely first need to feel like they are part of the commmunity, and need to feel pride in their community. In reality, what everyone else called 'their community' boils down to being just 'where they live' to these kids. Their 'community spirit' was in evidence all through the rioting, one steps up and smashes a window, then disappears into a crowd of people who then disperse and the perpetrators get away, it was in evidence through the BBM broadcast that went out that said something along the lines of 'It doesnt matter what ends you're from, we're hitting xyz place and all are welcome'. They were willing to put aside any gang related differences in order to pull together and become one massive youth community, and people dont like it because they were neither prepared for it, nor had any idea that the kids could manage this on their own. A woman I work with said they should have respect, and when I replied 'where is your respect for them' she said 'respect is earned, they dont deserve respect'. This attitude is something I myself have experienced, I'm not talking about respect for my achievments because I am still young, and have my whole life ahead of me, but basic respect, common courtesy, that a few years ago I didnt get from people of a certain age just because I was young. I'm talking about stuff like holding a door for me when I'm walking behind them, saying please and thank you, stuff like that. But you can be guaranteed that they expect me to extend those courtesies to them, purely because they are older than me. Show the youth some respect, they are not complete idiots as we have seen in the last few days. Right under the noses of the politicians, the police, the parents, these young people have managed to organise mass chaos, the level of organisation shown surely deserves some respect. Give people a sense of pride in their communities, by actually having something for them to be proud of. All of these kids that are being arrested, have them be involved in the rebuilding process of the buildings they have destroyed and they will feel a sense of ownership and attachment to the places, which is more likely to prevent this from happening in future than banning twitter is. And make a system where it is not more financially viable for a person to claim as many benefits as possible rather than get a job. Get people out in the real world, with jobs that they work hard at, and then they themselves, and will feel like they are part of the community. Again, I'd like to make it clear I dont condone the rioting and looting. But I do support the cause that this should be bringing to the attention of the nation. __________________ Last.FM

08-11-2011, 08:38 AM	#62 (permalink)
Ben Butler Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Rudheath Posts: 393	Although I don't condone the violence in London and other parts of the UK, to put it down as simply being 'pure criminality', as some Conservative MPs have stated is just plain stupid. This is just letting the goverment who make the policies off the hook. There has to be a reason for the violence. For me, there are things like poverty (The Big Society), education, lack of jobs and general social policies to blame. These people obviously have to take responsibility for their actions but nothing will be sorted if politicians and the general public, simply brand them as 'thugs' or whatever derogatory term they use. It will just make them want to revolt and hate them even more. The people going out on the streets with brooms doesn't fill me with confidence either, ok they are helping their communties but it's almost like they are saying, the state don't sort it out so we will! Conservative goverments are just bad for this country, get Labour in fast.

08-11-2011, 03:25 PM	#67 (permalink)
Paedantic Basterd Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5,184	These things do just happen though. Canada got mad about a hockey game. Senseless violence exists and is prevalent.