So god is midi-chlorians?

The so called evidence is too weak to prove a Jesus Christ existed IMO.
There is no verifiable proof.

Exactly.

I am far from a troll. Just because my beliefs differ from your's does not mean I am trolling. Thanks for trying though.

Since when do religious texts count as evidence? The Gospel accounts are no more historical than any other myth in the history of the world.

I believe Jesus existed. I don't believe all the claptrap about his virgin birth and him subsequently being "god's only begotten son", or his death being an atonement for the "sins" of the world, however I do believe that he performed spontaneous healings, reappeared-- not resurrected-- after death and that he was one of the few well known ascended masters of the world, who managed to escape the dream of the ego and the birth/death cycle.

Theosophy? Ascended master - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Precisely.

what is the difference between atheists and critics

I'm not sure if his entire divinity was invented, but I'm sure some stuff was added throughout the years. I guess jesus existed and he became a legend, but I don't know if he deserved that.
So to me he exists as an historical character, Much like Julius Ceasar or Napoleon. I have no reason to 'believe' in him :)

I do not believe a man named Jesus Christ ever stepped foot on this planet.

I do believe, however, that someone named Jesus did come in the flesh, was the Divine Word made flesh, and was born of a virgin named Mary. And, is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and was crucified, and not only will, but has risen again the third day.

But, the whole story is a literal myth. And, you are right, Jesus was cosmically progressive, and, I am really down with that as well. Jesus isn't so down with Christianity, however.

Now, without going all Josephus, can you prove that he actually was a historical walking, talking human being? Everyone who has studied knows that the Testimonium Flavianum is almost certainly a later interpolation.

Here's something interesting I will provide for free:)

MT 1:12 And after the Babylonian removal, Jeconiah begat Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begat Zerubbabel,
MT 1:13 and Zerubbabel begat Abiud, and Abiud begat Eliakim, and Eliakim begat Azor,
MT 1:14 and Azor begat Sadok, and Sadok begat Achim, and Achim begat Eliud,
MT 1:15 and Eliud begat Eleazar, and Eleazar begat Matthan, and Matthan begat Jacob,
MT 1:16 and Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was begotten Jesus, who is named Christ.
MT 1:17 All the generations, therefore, from Abraham unto David `are' fourteen generations, and from David unto the Babylonian removal fourteen generations, and from the Babylonian removal unto the Christ, fourteen generations.

Count the bold blacks. Unless Jeconiah was begotten twice by Josiah, then we have a situation. Why does it have to be so freaking complicated?:)

Just come down through those clouds and clear it all up, already!

What's that Jesus? Too many airplanes? Ah crap! Rapture's off folks. Sorry.

I'm sure there is a bible scholar in the house here who can explain this Ramona. It would take me a book or two just for this one chapter.

Might have something to do with Uriah, so, I think some Uriah's Heep is in order.



Take me across the water
‘Cause I need some place to hide
I done the rancher’s daughter
And I sure did hurt his pride

Well, there's a
Hundred miles of desert
Lies between his hide and mine
I don't need no food
And no water, Lord
‘Cos I'm running out of time

Fightin', killin', wine and women
Gonna put me to my grave
Runnin', hidin', losin', cryin'
Nothing left to save but my life

Stood on a ridge
And shunned religion
Thinking the world was mine
I made my break and a big mistake
Stealin', when I
Should've been buyin'

All that fightin', killin'
Wine and those women
Gonna put me to an early grave
Runnin', hidin', losin', cryin'
Nothing left to save but my life, life...

So I stood on a ridge
And shunned religion
Thinking the world was mine
I made my break and a big mistake
Stealin', when I
Should've been buyin'
I was stealin’
When I should’ve been buyin’
I was stealin’
When I should’ve been buyin’
Stealin’, when I
Should’ve been buyin’ ..
I was stealin’ ...

Who wrote this 'psalm' anyway?

peace

i'd like to interject with the scene from the comic "The Dark Knight Strikes Back"

after seeing Green Lantern's light enveloping the world

the Pope said "it be a Rapture"

off-page caption - "No"

Ayatollah said "JIHAD"

off-page caption - "FUCK OFF"

Now your theosophy is too deep for me:)

comic book philosophy

Metaphysics? Pope Plato v Ayatollah Aristotle?:)

more like Pope Superman vs Ayatollah Doomsday

Holy crap Batman! I think we're up s*it creek without a paddle.

better than in a boat without a rudder

I would beg to argue that. In sh*t creek it would be better than a boat with a rudder. Especially, a high-powered motor. Talk about getting sh*t faced!

You know. You're a lot prettier out here, than on your profile:)

Nonetheless. You're still pretty witty, and not sh*tty.:)

I'm a poet, and, I know it.

peace

back to the topic at hand:-

well, inversely, Jesus believed that atheists existed

Ah Duce, now? I don't want to. The Jesus debacle in that book is so corrupted, mistranslated, and, misinterpreted, it would take more than four carpenters to straighten out the mess.

But, in the sense of the Greek 'atheos', then yes, Jesus did not believe it, He knew it.

However, in two of the three synoptic gospels, Jesus last Words at the cross.

and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a great voice, saying, `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, `My God, my God, (The Gospel of Phillip adds 'Oh Lord') why didst Thou forsake me?'

It would simply take a book to try to explain the Jesus mess, so, just chew on this, and tell me what you take from it. And, the concept of a masculine gender for a being named God arose with the advent of Christianity, and was neutral prior to that, so take it for what it's worth I suppose. I'll add to the story if you like. It is quite the mystery, and the Son of man portrayed a lot of roles. A lot. If you have questions, I'll do my best to briefly address them, but, I will open a can of worms I do not particularly want to open:)

Mary said to him, "Lord, if many went astray and died, how will we know the difference?" The Perfect Savior answered, "Forsake the visible realm, make an end of visible things, then approach from the realm of the invisible, and the very Source of Thought will reveal to you how faith in the invisible can be found in the visible realm - those things that are the un-begotten Father's. Whoever has ears, let him hear!

Mary said, "There is but one saying I will speak to the Lord concerning the mystery of truth: In this have we taken our stand, and to the cosmic are we transparent."

Nathaniel, never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies . . . The scriptures always have, and always will reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them. . . Many earnest seekers after the truth have been, and will continue to be, confused and disheartened by these doctrines of the perfection of Scripture (Jesus).

The Scriptures are sacred because they present the thoughts and actions of men who were searching for God . . . they contain much that is true, very much, . . . but these writings also contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven, the loving Father I have come to reveal to all the worlds. (Jesus)

peace

steve

most Biblical scholars interpret that "why hast Thou forsaken me?" question as the point where Jesus has already taken all of mankind's sin upon himself, and thus he was dirty, dirty, dirty and even God will not touch him

of course God directed them to slay their enemies, the Bible would be different if Belial, Beelzebub or Lucifer's tribe were the victors

History is always written by the victors!
Shemhamforash Hail Satan!

Well that just blows a bullet hole right through John 3:16. And, that was the whole plan remember? Most 'biblical scholars' are apologists. Why are they so 'apologetic'?

Why don't they just come out and say "I'm sorry, I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about"?

My God, my God, why, O Lord, have you forsaken me? It was on the cross that he said these words, for it was there he was divided.

Every reference to God He made was in third person, save one.

Mark well the name 'Barabbas'.

Mark 14:36
"Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

The only time Jesus ever remotely referred to His Father by any name. Abba, which means “the father,” or “O Father.” Jesus did speak Aramaic.

The name Barabbas is a Hellenization of the Aramaic Bar Abba, literally, "Son of the Father".

He did not say, "Abba, Father why hast thou forsaken me"?

"Elohi, Elohi".

Ducie.....tell all those 'scholars' that they might want to learn their Elohi(m) from their Yahu, and their LORD God from their Lord GOD, and their LORD thy God, and their Lord, from their LORD, and their LORD of hosts......etc.

And, their 'hawah' from their 'hawwah'.

And, tell them we can all have a 'come to Jesus' meeting. Leave the wine skins at home, because, they are all full of s*it:)

If you cling to an idea as the unalterable Truth, then when the Truth does come in person and knock at your door, you will not be able to open the door and accept it.

I won't start on Lucifer, because I would be forced to name drop. And, I don't want that attention. I am an Eden, so, I have to know don't I?:)

I am sorry, however, for all the good religious folks out here being misled by all the buffoonery.

But, it is written many times to "pick up your OWN cross, and follow after me, and CONTINUE in MY Word".

It is typically interpreted to mean,

"I'll do all the dirty work, and, you all can ignore me, and worship Me like the devil; but, pay attention to Paul, and Simon Peter. You know, the 'rock' that denied three times even knowing my a*s."

I'm ready to rant, so, I will digress. Finish with a hymn.:)



peace dude

^^i tend to disregard most strawman arguments myself

Can someone explain this saying to me? It has never made sense. Perhaps I'm taking it too literally, but whether you win or lose has no bearing on objective historical facts and events.

It means that people who are successful are the ones who hold the power for what is recorded in history. Technically it should say "Recorded history is written by the victors" or something like that.

of the tribes in Israel, Yahweh's tribe were the strongest and defeated the others

what their prophets and leaders have wrote down, is now taken as literal fact by most Protestant strawmen

imagine if some other tribe worshipping some other deity were the victors

values and morals would be different

edit:- and steveeden, in case you're not aware, I'm a Gnostic Christian

That's what I thought, but that doesn't make sense either. Even though Germany lost World War II, there is still an objective series of events that make up the history of WWII, and this series of events was not recorded solely by the Allies. I mean, I'm sure that learning about WWII as an American entails a certain amount of inherent bias, just as learning about WWII as a German entails a certain amount of inherent bias. But despite any bias, recorded history is written by everyone.

I guess the saying should be "The version of history that you read may be obfuscated with bias, depending on the historical position of the author."

Which is like... duh.

Trust me. He was not a strawman. Unless, you are referring to my argument as being weak. I don't think so, but, you never know. There's a whole lot more to this story than meets the eye.

I am just touching the surface on the canonical account. Christian beliefs in an actual human sacrifice offered up by their God in order to be a fall guy, so they don't have to be responsible for their own actions.

It goes way deeper than this.:)

It is the greatest story ever sold, I mean told:rolleyes:

So, please don't disregard it. Argue it please?

I have even touched on the various birds, bees, flowers, and the tree symbolism. It's a great story.

But, if you must disregard it, please at least delve a little deeper as to why?

Because, as numbers go, we are only at 444, and 666 is much more entertaining, unless one actually believes it is more than a simple story, and actually believes in the 'one shot at life, screw it up, and off to hell for eternity you go' business. Many do.

Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."

And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed--

Become better than I; make yourselves like the son of the Holy Spirit. (Secret Book of James)

I am not certain what you meant by 'strawman', so please elaborate.





Peace

I think Jesus could easily have been a real man, obviously not a miracle worker, but someone who gave a lot for others. His mythology may have spread too much, created an aura that did not please those in power, and was crucified to "SHOW WHO IS BOSS!".

^^^ Just so we're clear that you understand:

Straw man argument:

It's just a reminder that the history you're taught in school is most likely biased as opposed to cooly objective. Not a bad thing to keep in mind imo.

Duce.... I am not discounting the relevance, or, denying the Truth of any part of the testimony of Jesus the Nazarene Christ. As for the battles of the Israelites, they were not literal wars. We are all Israel, and they represent something different than what is perceived. It is a story Duce. It is chalk full of symbolism that you say you know, but, you do not.

You say you are a 'gnostic Christian'. Then you would know that it is not about being a Christian, it is about becoming a Christ. It is not about gnosticism, it is about 'studying the Word', every Word of every scripture of every religion, mythology, so-called paganism, and every 'ology' known to man.

"You may eat freely of ALL the trees in the garden. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die".

Trees are symbolic, and are connected to characters in the books, leaves are pages, and the fruit is the knowledge.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but, by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord/God does man live by" Every Lord in every scripture.

All these quotes I give to you are what Jesus referred to as "hidden manna"

Jesus said: Recognize what is before you, and what is hidden from you will be revealed to you; for there is nothing hidden that will not be made manifest.
"Understand what is in front of your face, and then what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you." (Gospel of Thomas)

Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so. As for you, be as sly as snakes and as simple as doves."

The authority of Truth is the very spirit that indwells. The revelations of divine Truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow minded intolerance. (Jesus)

You say you are Gnostic. Then, when I said know "hawah" from "hawwah", what does that mean? Or, "ehyeh asher ehyeh"? Or, Moses, Noah, Adam, Eve, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Judah, Israel, Joseph, Benjamin, Mary, Elohim, Adonai, Ishi, Baali, David, Solomon, Nathan, Adonakim, Isaiah, Daniel, Hosea, Rachel, Leah,..........What is Logos?

Can you answer all those questions without looking it up?

I am not calling you out on this. This is why I did not want to get into this discussion. I use other forums to address religion. I address Spirituality, but, I regret making that initial post on this thread now, even, as I meant it in good fun.

All the books are True Duce. But, they are not historical accounts. Man has attempted to literally fulfill books that were meant as a means to demonstrate how the Logos of Providence had to reveal Truth through myth.
And, there are multiple roles that had to be portrayed by a very limited cast.

Do you ever wonder why Jews are prohibited from uttering the tetragrammaton? They say "HaShem". "The Name". They write L-rd, and G-d. It is for a reason Duce.

The Bible is prophecy. Pure and simple prophecy. It is just backwards.

Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is."

That simply means that the 'end' of the Bible is Gen chapter 1.

Trust me. I did not simply "pick my own cross and follow after Jesus". I chased him like a madman all of my life.

I am going to PM you to share something that I do not ever reveal. And, hopefully, you will see that I am not against anyone in the book. My obligation is to clear the Name of the Lord, and to straighten out the Jesus mess.

I will PM you, so, if you want to discuss this further, than PM me, and we will straighten this out. I am sorry if I offended you, but, this whole 'straw man' thing appears to be connected to the idea that my post was 'absurd' to the point of some kind of idiocy. If I am wrong, correct me, but, that is what I am gathering from another post.



Here is how I really feel about Jesus the Nazarene Christ.

peace

huh? my "strawmen" remark was in relation to you saying scholars are "apologists" so em, I agreed with you

actually i'm less interested in the Logos than in the Gnosis, which is the pursuit of knowledge about Christianity

i don't quite grasp those Aramaic words you quoted

Duce.....sorry....Someone else posted explaining it differently. My bad. The Names I quoted were Hebrew, and I will share them with you in a PM. Names and the etymologies are the only tools we have to measure them by. Genealogy is very specific in the book for a reason, and, are crucial to understanding interpretation.

Here would be a more proper interpretation of John 1:1-4

1 In the beginning was Logos, and Logos was with god, and Logos was god.
2 This One was in the beginning with god.
3 All things through him (Logos) did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
4 In him was Life (Life refers to the Holy Spirit), and the Life was the Light of men
5 and the Light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.

14 And the Word(Logos) became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

Logos is the Word sent as Jesus the Nazarene Christ, so, you really do need to be more interested in it than Gnosis. But, the gnostic texts are not in the canon Duce. I have them all. I have every Word ever uttered through Jesus, and, I can give them all to you. I will PM you very soon, and, I can only offer you my story, and, point you to what you are seeking. I am not a teacher, my only 'gift' is interpretation, which was granted to me by the Holy Spirit of the Divine Mother. So, let me just add this.

Duce.....a little secret. Christ is the Father. I know for a fact. I experienced enlightenment. The Cosmic Christ Consciousness. I stood in the presence of Providence. I was engulfed by a tremendous Light beaming down, and seemingly through the roof of my golf buddies house. I have experienced 'salvation', the 'resurrection and the Life' while in the flesh.

Which is why I want to PM you, and not discuss anything on the open forum.

Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. One will receive the truth in any other way. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is certainly necessary that they should be born again through the image. The bridegroom and the image must enter through the image into the truth: this is the restoration. It is appropriate that those who do not have it not only acquire the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but that they have acquired it on their own. If one does not acquire the name for himself, the name Christian will also be taken from him. But one receives them in the aromatic unction of the power of the cross. This power the apostles called the right and the left For this person is no longer a Christian but a Christ.

I will contact you in a day or so, and, only if you like, and are willing to 'become like a child'. An infant Duce. A totally empty vessel, forgetting all the doctrine and dogma taught by all the Pharisees and Scribes of the day.

I will talk soon, or, let me know if you would prefer not. Clinging to the manifestations of religion will guarantee to prevent you from seeing the mystery, and the Gnosis you are seeking, trust me.

take care

peace

Steven Wayne Eden Benson Asher/Ashton - research the etymologies extensively.
Madeline Lucille Eden - My Mother. And, Benson is both rooted in Benjamin and Benedict, And, Ashton will lead you to fraxinus ornus. "Manna Ash". A Tree.

^^sure, PM Away

I will happily do that. I've been up for 2 nights. Insomnia sucks. I am going to give my best effort to snooze, so, I will get with you when I rise again the third day:)

Can you tell me how to send my file attachments. I can build a computer from scratch, and, do not know jack about software. I don't get it. I think it is a focus problem. I need Ritalin.:)

peace

Here's a great Jesus song. Freddie Mercury. He was Zoroastrian, but, he wrote a lot of very prophetic Biblical based tunes. Go figure.

i don't think you can send file attachments here

you can PM me and i'll give you my email for that file

Wasn't there another guy who

formatted his posts

like this and was fond of

posting in Current Events?

I can't remember his name

If you look at how the original apostolic church has been modified, maligned, and subsequently evolved by those in positions of power (aka "the victors") it's fairly easy to see how this applies.

Here are some questions to facilitate the process of understanding this:

1. How and why did the Holy Roman Empire go from being a largely pagan entity which sought to eradicate the small, but growing, subversive Christian populace (church) to becoming what we now know as the Catholic Church?

2. How did Saul of Tarsus (Saint Paul b. ca 5 AD -67AD), Go from being one of the greatest persecutor of early Christians to being considered Christianity's greatest messenger? Mind you 13 out of the 27 books of the New Testament were "officially" written by him, (there may be more that have been incorrectly attributed to other authors) and he wasn't even an actual apostle of Jesus. Also bear in mind that there are only four Gospels in the NT which account for the life and ministry of Jesus, none of which were written by any of his contemporaries (the apostles).

I ask these question, because even writing a rudimentary history would be extremely time consuming, as it would be the equivalent of writing a small book, but the answer to both will give as much historical evidence as can be found to the true nature of the historical Jesus, if he in fact existed, which I believe he did, but his history has been written by those in power who sought to use his influence to control an ignorant populace.

I think he probably existed yes, but i think he was in no way divine and a lot of his teachings were immoral.