Do atheists believe that Jesus existed?

Metal Connoisseur · 08-05-2011, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

the entire Bible is based on what the victor tells is true

if Lucifer's, Baal's or Beelzebub's tribe were victorious, instead of Yahweh's, we'd have a very much different Bible

I'm not sure I follow, the gospels were selected during the Council of Hippo around 400 AD or so. The Edict of Milan had only been issued a few decades before which allowed for Christians to worship freely and not be persecuted. I don't know if would classify the early Christians as victors.

If by victor you mean God triumphing over Lucifer then yes, I suppose they are victors. It's all about perspective, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to Satanic or occult doctrine but I'm sure whatever manifestos are central to that sort of faith has a completely different spin on the Christian tradition in terms of the struggle between God and Lucifer.

Howard the Duck · 08-05-2011, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal Connoisseur

I'm not sure I follow, the gospels were selected during the Council of Hippo around 400 AD or so. The Edict of Milan had only been issued a few decades before which allowed for Christians to worship freely and not be persecuted. I don't know if would classify the early Christians as victors.

If by victor you mean God triumphing over Lucifer then yes, I suppose they are victors. It's all about perspective, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to Satanic or occult doctrine but I'm sure whatever manifestos are central to that sort of faith has a completely different spin on the Christian tradition in terms of the struggle between God and Lucifer.

i meant during the old Testament days, there were these few tribes who worshipped a particularly deity

the one which worshipped Yahweh triumphed over the other tribes

Lucifer was actually one of the kings of these others tribes

of coz, the tribe that triumped would call these others deities and kings "demons" or "Satan"

if it had been otherwise, "Yahweh" would've been a demon, and the story of the Old Testament would have been completely different

Metal Connoisseur · 08-05-2011, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

i meant during the old Testament days, there were these few tribes who worshipped a particularly deity

the one which worshipped Yahweh triumphed over the other tribes

Lucifer was actually one of the kings of these others tribes

of coz, the tribe that triumped would call these others deities and kings "demons" or "Satan"

if it had been otherwise, "Yahweh" would've been a demon, and the story of the Old Testament would have been completely different

And the Gallic tribes could've actually been bespectacled, thrifty, environmentally conscious hipsters who listened to LCD Soundsystem but just got a bad rap from the mainstream Romans. We'll just never know the events as they actually happened

Howard the Duck · 08-05-2011, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal Connoisseur

And the Gallic tribes could've actually been bespectacled, thrifty, environmentally conscious hipsters who listened to LCD Soundsystem but just got a bad rap from the mainstream Romans. We'll just never know the events as they actually happened

and we never will

the time of the Patriarchs was so long ago

Moses' leading of the exodus occurred around 1312 BCE

I would place this triumph (?) by Yahweh's tribe slightly just before Abraham's time (the first Patriarch)

SIRIUSB · 08-05-2011, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

the entire Bible is based on what the victor tells is true

if Lucifer's, Baal's or Beelzebub's tribe were victorious, instead of Yahweh's, we'd have a very much different Bible

Would you direct me to where it says Lucifer, Baal, or Beelzebub had any tribes?

SIRIUSB · 08-05-2011, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal Connoisseur

I'm not sure I follow, the gospels were selected during the Council of Hippo around 400 AD or so. The Edict of Milan had only been issued a few decades before which allowed for Christians to worship freely and not be persecuted. I don't know if would classify the early Christians as victors.

It wasn’t until the fourth century at the Council of Hippo in AD393 that our present New Testament was officially accepted by the orthodox Church. Although it should be stated, leading up to this event, the twenty-seven books that make-up the corpus of our New Testament was in circulation among the early Christians. In order to understand its development, however, we should first define what is meant by the term, “Canon” of scripture.

Quote:

If by victor you mean God triumphing over Lucifer then yes, I suppose they are victors. It's all about perspective, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to Satanic or occult doctrine but I'm sure whatever manifestos are central to that sort of faith has a completely different spin on the Christian tradition in terms of the struggle between God and Lucifer.

The word Lucifer is found in only one place in the Bible -- Isaiah 14:12 -- but only in the King James and related versions: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! . . ."

The King James Version is based on the Vulgate, the Latin translation of Jerome. Jerome translated the Hebrew helel (bright or brilliant one) as "Lucifer," which was a reasonable Latin equivalent. And yet it is this Lucifer, the bright one or lightbearer, that came to be understood by so many as the name for Satan, Lord of Darkness.

Metal Connoisseur · 08-05-2011, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIRIUSB

It wasn’t until the fourth century at the Council of Hippo in AD393 that our present New Testament was officially accepted by the orthodox Church. Although it should be stated, leading up to this event, the twenty-seven books that make-up the corpus of our New Testament was in circulation among the early Christians. In order to understand its development, however, we should first define what is meant by the term, “Canon” of scripture.

The word Lucifer is found in only one place in the Bible -- Isaiah 14:12 -- but only in the King James and related versions: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! . . ."

The King James Version is based on the Vulgate, the Latin translation of Jerome. Jerome translated the Hebrew helel (bright or brilliant one) as "Lucifer," which was a reasonable Latin equivalent. And yet it is this Lucifer, the bright one or lightbearer, that came to be understood by so many as the name for Satan, Lord of Darkness.

Some Gospels were excluded, i.e. Gnostic Gospels

I've always been under the impression Lucifer and Satan were synonyms? I'm be no means a theologian so forgive my ignorance.

SIRIUSB · 08-05-2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal Connoisseur

Some Gospels were excluded, i.e. Gnostic Gospels

I've always been under the impression Lucifer and Satan were synonyms?

Yes, many Gospels were omitted from the final edit, a lot of them showed up at excavation site of Nag Hammadi including the Gnostic Gospels

Quote:

I'm be no means a theologian so forgive my ignorance.

LOL, no sweat, few people are as weird as me and know these things

Howard the Duck · 08-06-2011, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIRIUSB

Would you direct me to where it says Lucifer, Baal, or Beelzebub had any tribes?

it's not in the Bible or in the Gnostic Gospels

it's just some part theory/part speculation some atheists had

i read about it somewhere

noise · 08-06-2011, 08:09 AM

I never thought about it much. I suppose some specifics about the character Jesus may have been modeled after the life of a particularly charismatic dude.

But the overall character is just your classic hero going through the typical heroic journey. In Jesus' case, the journey culminates in the whole death and rebirth ordeal (symbolic of course, but for some reason now interpreted as literal), but really, his story isn't so different from any other hero's saga. Just an everyday guy who got tossed into a world of extra-ordinary happenings who not only survived but prevailed, and came home just in time to save the day.

Think Luke Skywaker, Frodo Baggins, or even Harry Potter

08-06-2011, 08:09 AM	#100 (permalink)
noise thirsty ears Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Boulder Posts: 742	I never thought about it much. I suppose some specifics about the character Jesus may have been modeled after the life of a particularly charismatic dude. But the overall character is just your classic hero going through the typical heroic journey. In Jesus' case, the journey culminates in the whole death and rebirth ordeal (symbolic of course, but for some reason now interpreted as literal), but really, his story isn't so different from any other hero's saga. Just an everyday guy who got tossed into a world of extra-ordinary happenings who not only survived but prevailed, and came home just in time to save the day. Think Luke Skywaker, Frodo Baggins, or even Harry Potter __________________ my flac collection