American Police Brutality

Guybrush · 06-07-2011, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

You have too much faith in the kindness of human beings and society in general.

owning a gun does create a sense of security because if some random nutjob decides that they are fed up and goes on a spree you are able to defend yourself and protect others that would have been victims if you were some carebear that didn't think owning a gun would do any good.

We have random nutjobs, but you wouldn't expect one to have a gun so it's just not the kind of stuff we worry about over here. You write that I have too much faith - I don't think so. I see society here works just fine, actually better by most standards as we're on average healthier, wealthier and I believe happier. In 2010, Norway topped the list of nations in the Human Development Index and so it's not hard to have faith in something you can plainly see works just fine. I know that doesn't have to mean it would also work in the US, but it doesn't mean it can't either.

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Added a link (source)

Necromancer · 06-07-2011, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

We have random nutjobs, but you wouldn't expect one to have a gun so it's just not the kind of stuff we worry about over here. You write that I have too much faith - I don't think so. I see society here works just fine, actually better by most standards as we're on average healthier, wealthier and I believe happier. In 2010, Norway topped the list of nations in the Human Development Index and so it's not hard to have faith in something you can plainly see works just fine. I know that doesn't have to mean it would also work in the US, but it doesn't mean it can't either.

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Added a link (source)

For some reason, that makes me feel uncomfortable and completely unsure of myself tore

I can take the healthier and wealthier part, but the happier part really hurts. "I guess maybe there is more of a Wild, Wild, West mentality here in the states" when compared to other countries. I always wanted to live/relocate to "Cape Town, South Africa" myself.

(I'm kidding of course).

djchameleon · 06-07-2011, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

We have random nutjobs, but you wouldn't expect one to have a gun so it's just not the kind of stuff we worry about over here. You write that I have too much faith - I don't think so. I see society here works just fine, actually better by most standards as we're on average healthier, wealthier and I believe happier. In 2010, Norway topped the list of nations in the Human Development Index and so it's not hard to have faith in something you can plainly see works just fine. I know that doesn't have to mean it would also work in the US, but it doesn't mean it can't either.

edit :

Added a link (source)

Thanks for that source link and the US is 4th on that list. So, what we are doing is working just fine. It's just a different way of living and it's not so extremely on the other end of the spectrum like you are making it seem.

~~Dirty~~ · 06-07-2011, 03:49 PM

I've actually changed my mind over time on guns. I basically don't see non-hunting firearms as anything but dangerous and pretty much unnecessary. I honestly don't see much of a point to them, but I realize it'd be pretty much impossible to somehow take them all away. Most of my good friends own guns and they've each spent like $1000 buying nice guns and extended mags and a bunch of shit. I don't really get it, they only go to the range not even a handful of times a year but get pissed when anyone says we shouldn't be able to have firearms. "The right to bear arms" was written in a completely different time and social structure and was written for different reasons.

And also commenting on the 1st video in the original post, I don't think that's police brutality at all. There are cases of brutality, but that isn't one of them.

Freebase Dali · 06-07-2011, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

The only place people carry guns here is on Svalbard (because of polar bears) or when hunting. People in Oslo generally do not carry guns, not even the police. Despite the fact some people do have guns, the general feeling is that society is relatively free of them and I think that increases everyone's sense of security. Do you really feel safer when you go over to your neighbour to complain about something and he has a big ass gun strapped to his waist? People owning guns not meant for hunting, but for scaring and shooting people, seems paranoid to me and a little like you're preparing for the zombie apocalypse or something when you'll have to defend yourself. How useful is a gun really? On average, is owning one going to extend you or your family's life? When everybody in society can easily obtain and own them, does that increase the life quality of society's people?

I guess you don't read stateside news or anything.
We have a pretty high rate of home-invasions, burglaries, robberies, and some (but not all) of them are armed.
Yes, in the states, there is a fairly high likelihood that you and your family's home may be broken into. Even if it may be small odds, I don't think I'm going to gamble my family's life on it, should the worst happen, just because I don't think guns are useful. That doesn't make any sense to me.

As for whether they're doing anything positive when everyone has one.... not everyone has one. Felons can't obtain them legally at all, and the penalty for them having one regardless is pretty stiff. But the fact of the matter is they still do obtain them. I don't know about other people, but I don't think I'd like it much if guns were outlawed and I was unarmed, and all the felons who didn't give a **** had guns. Sorry, I'm not into that scenario. Another scenario I'm not into is being an unarmed citizen in a nation with an armed military. Self protection is a basic human right, and I don't think you have to look very far to see governments harming their people militarily. Ahemtripolicough....

Guybrush · 06-07-2011, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

Thanks for that source link and the US is 4th on that list. So, what we are doing is working just fine. It's just a different way of living and it's not so extremely on the other end of the spectrum like you are making it seem.

You made it seem like society relatively free of guns was a naive dream by someone who has too much faith in the good in people. My only point was to demonstrate that it's not just a naive wish, relatively gun free societies exist and they can work just fine (ex. Norway). By relatively gun free, I mean that patrolling police don't carry guns and people generally don't own them - except a small minority, such as those who use rifles for hunting.

CanwllCorfe · 06-07-2011, 06:04 PM

I live in the middle of nowhere. We have state troops drive through every now and then, usually to get to somewhere else. The only thing cops come here to really do is target drunk driving. I'm completely fine with that.

The Batlord · 06-08-2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

I guess you don't read stateside news or anything.
We have a pretty high rate of home-invasions, burglaries, robberies, and some (but not all) of them are armed.
Yes, in the states, there is a fairly high likelihood that you and your family's home may be broken into. Even if it may be small odds, I don't think I'm going to gamble my family's life on it, should the worst happen, just because I don't think guns are useful. That doesn't make any sense to me.

As for whether they're doing anything positive when everyone has one.... not everyone has one. Felons can't obtain them legally at all, and the penalty for them having one regardless is pretty stiff. But the fact of the matter is they still do obtain them. I don't know about other people, but I don't think I'd like it much if guns were outlawed and I was unarmed, and all the felons who didn't give a **** had guns. Sorry, I'm not into that scenario. Another scenario I'm not into is being an unarmed citizen in a nation with an armed military. Self protection is a basic human right, and I don't think you have to look very far to see governments harming their people militarily. Ahemtripolicough....

Not that I'm coming down on either side, but protection from home invasion was not the primary reason why we have a Second Amendment. We have a Second Amendment so that if we are invaded by a foreign power or we ever have to fight a war against the government, local militias can be formed immediately. Local militias would be pretty much completely useless against a professional army, so it's debatable whether this amendment actually has any use that requires it to be an amendment these days. The fact that it is though, means gun nuts feel that it's a "god given right" and aren't even willing to discuss the issue. We should at least be able to have a real public debate on the subject.

**Janszoon** · 06-08-2011, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

The only place people carry guns here is on Svalbard (because of polar bears) or when hunting. People in Oslo generally do not carry guns, not even the police. Despite the fact some people do have guns, the general feeling is that society is relatively free of them and I think that increases everyone's sense of security. Do you really feel safer when you go over to your neighbour to complain about something and he has a big ass gun strapped to his waist? People owning guns not meant for hunting, but for scaring and shooting people, seems paranoid to me and a little like you're preparing for the zombie apocalypse or something when you'll have to defend yourself. How useful is a gun really? On average, is owning one going to extend you or your family's life? When everybody in society can easily obtain and own them, does that increase the life quality of society's people?

I can honestly tell you I have never had that experience in my life. Not only that but I've lived in several different parts of the US in my life and I've never seen someone who wasn't a cop carrying a gun out in public. As I said earlier in this thread it's important to keep in mind that things vary a lot from place to place here. What may be completely acceptable and legal in very pro-gun states like Louisiana or Texas may not be acceptable or legal in other parts of the country.

~~[MERIT]~~ · 06-08-2011, 02:47 PM

I've never experieced police brutality, but I have had some not so friendly encounters with them. A few bad apples can make the public lose all respect for them.

View Poll Results: Do american police generally seem too violent or oppressive to you?
Yes	60	65.22%
No	23	25.00%
Undecided / No opinion / I'm a vegetable	9	9.78%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

06-07-2011, 06:04 PM	#67 (permalink)
CanwllCorfe Quiet Man in the Corner Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Pocono Mountains Posts: 2,480	I live in the middle of nowhere. We have state troops drive through every now and then, usually to get to somewhere else. The only thing cops come here to really do is target drunk driving. I'm completely fine with that. __________________ Your eyes were never yet let in to see the majesty and riches of the mind, but dwell in darkness; for your God is blind.

06-07-2011, 03:49 PM	#64 (permalink)
~~Dirty~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: USA Posts: 981	I've actually changed my mind over time on guns. I basically don't see non-hunting firearms as anything but dangerous and pretty much unnecessary. I honestly don't see much of a point to them, but I realize it'd be pretty much impossible to somehow take them all away. Most of my good friends own guns and they've each spent like $1000 buying nice guns and extended mags and a bunch of shit. I don't really get it, they only go to the range not even a handful of times a year but get pissed when anyone says we shouldn't be able to have firearms. "The right to bear arms" was written in a completely different time and social structure and was written for different reasons. And also commenting on the 1st video in the original post, I don't think that's police brutality at all. There are cases of brutality, but that isn't one of them.

06-08-2011, 02:47 PM	#70 (permalink)
~~[MERIT]~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Missouri, USA Posts: 4,814	I've never experieced police brutality, but I have had some not so friendly encounters with them. A few bad apples can make the public lose all respect for them.