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Old 05-31-2011, 12:03 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Why would "God" predestine people to go against his will? If he is all good, all knowing, and all powerful, why would he need to make us suffer in order to test our faith in him? The Bible says that he is a "jealous God." What does he have to be jealous of? Unless he has legitimate competition, why sweat it? It seems that he needs us to worship and obey him just as much as we "need" him. If everyone has free will, what if everyone chose to disobey him and follow Satan? According to him, the whole world would go to Hell, and he would be sitting alone in heaven with his thumb up his ass. What good does that do anyone?

With no proof of an afterlife, wouldn't it behove him to give us some incentive in THIS life to follow him?
See, this part I never understand. If God is a perfect being/entity then why would he be jealous? Jealousy is a human emotion. The bible also states that he is a loving God but also vengeful or something along those lines. Again, two more human emotions. Why would a perfect being NEED to be constantly worshiped by his creations? it doesn't make any fucking sense imo.
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Old 05-31-2011, 12:04 AM   #32 (permalink)
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On a side note, I was scrolling down the forum and briefly thought this thread read "Can God give free wifi?", to which I thought "I wish".
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Old 05-31-2011, 12:06 AM   #33 (permalink)
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God can give free Wifi!

You just need to go to church more often and pray to him nightly.
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Fame, fortune, power, titties. People say these are the most crucial things in life, but you can have a pocket full o' gold and it doesn't mean sh*t if you don't have someone to share that gold with. Seems simple. Yet it's an important lesson to learn. Even lone wolves run in packs sometimes.


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IMO I don't know jack-**** though so don't listen to me.
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The problem is that most police officers in America are psychopaths.
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Old 05-31-2011, 10:06 AM   #34 (permalink)
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You bring up a good point. The game is rigged. You have the free will to disobey god and go to hell but upon further examination. Christians also believe in "second chances" So you can go around doing whatever you want and sinning but as soon as you choose to accept him as your savoir then you are saved and this can occur on your death bed when you are about to die in like say the next five mins and technically you are supposed to be able to go to heaven.

You can be the most evil person and do whatever the hell you want but just make sure you repent a few mins before you die and you are gravy!
It all makes sense if you think of religion as a means of damage control.
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Old 05-31-2011, 01:26 PM   #35 (permalink)
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If I compared the difference philosophical difference between you and a rock, I couldn't bring up the idea you have free will and a rock doesn't? - because there's no way to prove it?
No, you couldn't. You couldn't prove that my actions were done out of free will, or if they were predestined by God. Just as you could not prove that a rock "chose" to lay on the ground, or if God predestined it to lay there. I'm obviously humoring you, as a comparison between a conscious being and a rock is ridiculous.

I guess you misread the tone of my previous post. As long as there are people that believe in an all knowing, all powerful God, the ideas of free will versus predestination will always be in question. Setting aside religious beliefs, any person with an ounce of common sense can see that people choose their own actions. If they didn't, then no one would be punished for a crime, since they supposedly didn't "choose" to do it, it was "predestined."
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:45 PM   #36 (permalink)
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... any person with an ounce of common sense can see that people choose their own actions. If they didn't, then no one would be punished for a crime, since they supposedly didn't "choose" to do it, it was "predestined."
Why do you only have the alleged perp predestined to commit crimes, would not law enforcement also be predestined to arrest, prosecute and incarcerate the alleged perp?
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:46 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Why do you only have the alleged perp predestined to commit crimes, would not law enforcement also be predestined to arrest, prosecute and incarcerate the alleged perp?
I assumed that you could infer as much, which you clearly did. Are you trying to argue for arguments sake?
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:48 PM   #38 (permalink)
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And atheists are accused of believing that the universe is pointless (which it is).
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:28 AM   #39 (permalink)
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And atheists are accused of believing that the universe is pointless (which it is).
I believe that's really more of a Nihilistic point of view.
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:52 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Here's a bit of a brain teaser: Is God capable of giving humans free will?
(I use God to refer to the deity that is used by Catholicism, the same idea could apply to many God/god/gods)
Yes. God is capable of giving humans free will. Just the fact that HE let you create this thread without having your fingers bleed is one proof.

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I would argue no.
Let's say that God creates a human being. God creates this human being with the full knowledge of past, present, and future since God is said to be all powerful and all knowing.
No human being has the full knowledge of the past and the future. I forgot what I ate for lunch exactly 1 week ago and don't know what I'll be eating tomorrow. God creates us humans full of imperfections and flaws and that's what makes us perfect in HIS eyes. That's what also makes the world interesting and beautiful.

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Because God is all powerful, he also has the power to create or not create this human. And he must be totally aware of what he is creating since he is all knowing. So then if God creates a human that is destined to eat the fruit of knowledge and damn all humanity to an existence of sin and pain, than not only did he create that human with full knowledge of that humans destiny, but he then also therefore created that human with the purpose of damning all humanity in such a way. The actions of that human were the intended effects of that particular individual, created by God, in that particular environment, created by God.
Not all humans think about damning humanity. Also, it's never God's intentions to make the world miserable by creating humans. Some humans tend to be violent and evil by means of choice. For example, instead of trying to break a fight between 2 guys, some try to view it as entertainment?

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As this applies to all humans, life forms, objects, etc, etc etc, God is therefore solely responsible for all sin, pain, suffering etc.
God is not responsible for anything humans are doing here on earth. But because He loves us all, He dies on the cross to save all of us from eternal hell.

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As a result I can only conclude that if this God does exist, we actually have no free will and therefore we have no responsibility for our actions - all responsibility falls on God who created us with this destiny and for the purpose of living the life we live.
If i broke something, I take responsiblity with it and try to fix it myself. Is this just another case of you being afraid of accepting your mistakes in life?

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Here is an example of the relationship between a human creator and a robot which is very different. If a human creates a robot, and the robot was built improperly and so malfunctions in a destructive way, it is the fault of the human creator for being an incompetent designer. If the human had full knowledge that the malfunction would occur, the effects of the malfunction would be the intention of the creator and therefore it would be the fault of the creator for being immoral. This isn't about if the creator accidentally started a device that he knew would malfunction, its about intentionally starting a device which would malfunction with full knowledge of the effects and progression of events that would follow.
I don't wanna compare myself (human) to a mere robot.
Is it really that hard for you to view God as a loving, caring, nurturing, understanding, good God than just a mere creator?

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Feel free to comment any counterarguments or elaborate on how this would relate to any other deities or paradoxes ect.
i'm guessing you're experiencing a hard time in your life and blaming God for all of it. well, just pray very hard and take responsibility of your actions.
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