Sounds Like Bin Laden's Dead

Mr November · 05-02-2011, 11:00 AM

Most things that take on the kind of historical magnitude that 9/11 did, sort of never finish. When people stop talking about the war in the present tense, that's a good sign that it's over for practical reasons. But look at the civil war in the USA. Is it even really over?

Sentiments and grudges will likely exist for generations. And the same kind of events that lead to 9/11 and the ensuing war, will probably continue to happen in the middles east and northern africa indefinitely. Just look at Libya.

~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ · 05-02-2011, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Welp, Obama just wrapped up this little speech with a bunch of Bush-esque godbothering. Looks like he might be well on his way to losing my vote in 2012.

He mentioned "no matter what God you prayed to" and then quoted the pledge of alligence. Godbothering?

TheBig3 · 05-02-2011, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan

He mentioned "no matter what God you prayed to" and then quoted the pledge of alligence. Godbothering?

Thank god I'm not the only one asking that question. I hope you get an answer because I said he was reacting, not to the speech, but to previous incidents, grudges, and hang-ups. That was met with an eye-rolling emoticon.

I just don't see, in that speech, how he became Bush, or how it invoked the crusades.

MoonlitSunshine · 05-02-2011, 11:31 AM

The Godbothering was in relation to the "One Nation under God" statement at the end of his speech, I'm not sure how those arguing the religious neutrality of his speech keep missing this as it's been said at least three times by different people. As I know I have said and probably others too, we have no problem with him asking for God's blessing of the country, but we do have a problem with him declaring the entire United States as a nation "under God", a nation defined by Christianity, a nation still being driven by a religious force. That's what the Godbothering is in relation to.

It's insulting because it implies that every success of the people is as a result of God's blessing, though I'd ignore that one personally. It's dangerous from a religious perspective as it alienates those who do not believe in the Christian God (being known as "God" - One nation under God implies that those who do not believe in God are either his unwitting subjects or not part of the Nation), and it has political ramifications because it implies that the actions made by the country were done by the will of God, as a nation under Him, thus making it an action of religious importance.

While the above might be slight exaggerations, and that you would have to be either unlucky or a bit touchy in order to see it that way, I hope you can understand the offence taken by the definite implication by that statement that the USA is a Christian nation.

P.S: I know some of you are going to do this, but I'm going to try anyway: Please don't ignore the point of this post, and focus on one of the potential ramifications that I gave. I was just giving examples of how it might be seen by people who already have a problem with the US, who are numerous indeed, and not necessarily already enemies. The point in terms of the people taking offence in this thread is a lot less severe, so picking on one of those points and saying "that's ridiculous" is not a rebuttal...

~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ · 05-02-2011, 11:34 AM

The.

Pledge.

Of.

Alleigence.

"One nation under God" in itself doesn't strictly denote Christanity. I recall several lines in his speech addressing people of all faiths, and even devoting a sizable portion to making sure Americans knew this was not a war against Islam.

I believe in God but I don't believe he has anything to do with political affairs. And yet even
I am not bothered or offended by the President's statement because I know he was just quoting the pledge of alleigence, and that pledge is more traditional and symbolic in nature now. If you have an issue with "One nation under God", take it up with the pledge and not with the President.

OccultHawk · 05-02-2011, 11:35 AM

I'll believe it when I see it.

iron9567 · 05-02-2011, 11:49 AM

Depending on if you believe in the conspiracies that bin ladin died in 2001 or not. I'm not going to get into that conspiracy right now due to the fact I'm to tired of all these so called conspiracy theories.
Anyways to the point of this reply,
If you're going off the news of Osama Bin Laddin being killed may 1st. Then it's also neat to point out that his death is also a day after Adolf Hitler shot himself. I just thought it was a weird coincidence worthy of pointing out to you all.

~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ · 05-02-2011, 11:50 AM

Yeah, picked up on that. Both deaths were announced the same day.

TheBig3 · 05-02-2011, 12:03 PM

Quote:

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by the socialist minister Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). It was originally published in The Youth's Companion on September 8, 1892. Bellamy had hoped that the pledge would be used by citizens in any country.

In its original form it read:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added. At this time it read:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Section 4 of the Flag Code states:

The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.", should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute."

The original Bellamy salute, first described in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, who authored the original Pledge, began with a military salute, and after reciting the words "to the flag," the arm was extended toward the flag.

At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute — right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it. Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." At the words, "to my Flag," the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side.

The Youth's Companion, 1892

Shortly thereafter, the pledge was begun with the right hand over the heart, and after reciting "to the Flag," the arm was extended toward the Flag, palm-down.

In World War II, the salute too much resembled the Nazi salute, so it was changed to keep the right hand over the heart throughout.

Eisenhower was in on a theological jihad! The rat bastard! And to think I bought his warnings about the Military Industrial Complex.

MoonlitSunshine · 05-02-2011, 12:51 PM

Hey, I'm not claiming to know your constitution or pledge off by heart, I'm just saying that that's the thing which stood out to me as why people were taking offence.

05-02-2011, 11:31 AM	#244 (permalink)
MoonlitSunshine Dat's Der Bunny! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ireland Posts: 1,088	The Godbothering was in relation to the "One Nation under God" statement at the end of his speech, I'm not sure how those arguing the religious neutrality of his speech keep missing this as it's been said at least three times by different people. As I know I have said and probably others too, we have no problem with him asking for God's blessing of the country, but we do have a problem with him declaring the entire United States as a nation "under God", a nation defined by Christianity, a nation still being driven by a religious force. That's what the Godbothering is in relation to. It's insulting because it implies that every success of the people is as a result of God's blessing, though I'd ignore that one personally. It's dangerous from a religious perspective as it alienates those who do not believe in the Christian God (being known as "God" - One nation under God implies that those who do not believe in God are either his unwitting subjects or not part of the Nation), and it has political ramifications because it implies that the actions made by the country were done by the will of God, as a nation under Him, thus making it an action of religious importance. While the above might be slight exaggerations, and that you would have to be either unlucky or a bit touchy in order to see it that way, I hope you can understand the offence taken by the definite implication by that statement that the USA is a Christian nation. P.S: I know some of you are going to do this, but I'm going to try anyway: Please don't ignore the point of this post, and focus on one of the potential ramifications that I gave. I was just giving examples of how it might be seen by people who already have a problem with the US, who are numerous indeed, and not necessarily already enemies. The point in terms of the people taking offence in this thread is a lot less severe, so picking on one of those points and saying "that's ridiculous" is not a rebuttal... __________________ "I found it eventually, at the bottom of a locker in a disused laboratory, with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard". Ever thought of going into Advertising?" - Arthur Dent

05-02-2011, 11:49 AM	#247 (permalink)
iron9567 musicbanter peeping tom Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 74	Depending on if you believe in the conspiracies that bin ladin died in 2001 or not. I'm not going to get into that conspiracy right now due to the fact I'm to tired of all these so called conspiracy theories. Anyways to the point of this reply, If you're going off the news of Osama Bin Laddin being killed may 1st. Then it's also neat to point out that his death is also a day after Adolf Hitler shot himself. I just thought it was a weird coincidence worthy of pointing out to you all. __________________ thanks The iron man I don't want to change the world. I just want to make the world colder then the day I came.

05-02-2011, 12:51 PM	#250 (permalink)
MoonlitSunshine Dat's Der Bunny! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ireland Posts: 1,088	Hey, I'm not claiming to know your constitution or pledge off by heart, I'm just saying that that's the thing which stood out to me as why people were taking offence. __________________ "I found it eventually, at the bottom of a locker in a disused laboratory, with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard". Ever thought of going into Advertising?" - Arthur Dent

05-02-2011, 11:00 AM	#241 (permalink)
Mr November Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Halifax, Canada Posts: 429	Most things that take on the kind of historical magnitude that 9/11 did, sort of never finish. When people stop talking about the war in the present tense, that's a good sign that it's over for practical reasons. But look at the civil war in the USA. Is it even really over? Sentiments and grudges will likely exist for generations. And the same kind of events that lead to 9/11 and the ensuing war, will probably continue to happen in the middles east and northern africa indefinitely. Just look at Libya.

05-02-2011, 11:34 AM	#245 (permalink)
~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,538	The. Pledge. Of. Alleigence. "One nation under God" in itself doesn't strictly denote Christanity. I recall several lines in his speech addressing people of all faiths, and even devoting a sizable portion to making sure Americans knew this was not a war against Islam. I believe in God but I don't believe he has anything to do with political affairs. And yet even I am not bothered or offended by the President's statement because I know he was just quoting the pledge of alleigence, and that pledge is more traditional and symbolic in nature now. If you have an issue with "One nation under God", take it up with the pledge and not with the President.

05-02-2011, 11:35 AM	#246 (permalink)
OccultHawk one-balled nipple jockey Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Dirty Souf Biatch Posts: 22,006	I'll believe it when I see it.

05-02-2011, 11:50 AM	#248 (permalink)
~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,538	Yeah, picked up on that. Both deaths were announced the same day.