Muslim Women
 

So in France they have now officially banned the Burka. If a woman is to wear one she will be charged $500. Is this against their rights? Do these women have rights with or without burkas in Eastern countries? Do they know any better than what they've always lived in and been brought up to believe?

Do you think this is fair? Some may argue yes due to the ongoing threat of terrorism and the ability for suicide bombers to have anonymity by wearing these burkas. Others might say no as it is stereotyping those wearing burkas and is against their rights as a human being.

My next question is, do you think it is fair how Muslim women are treated by Muslim men? How much do you actually know of their culture? A lot of women appear to be very keen to wear burkas by respectfully covering up according to their faith, but is this really what religion dictates or is it what men want? From what I understand, men are considered too tempted by women who show flesh and cannot control their urges. Therefore the women must cover up either completely or only leave their face uncovered in order to not encourage men. This is partly due to the rule that a man may not be alone in a room with a woman unless he is wed to her.

I ask western men here, how would you feel about being in that situation where you cannot see the women you are to be with until after you've wed? In the west it is all based on dating and judgement on looks and personality but over there the couples have very little chance to get to know each other. In a nut shell, you will be marrying a stranger who you haven't seen apart from the face/eyes at most.

Now I may be slightly off in my understandings but have this knowledge from dating an arab man myself, which was not the easiest thing to do. I do realise that there will be another side to all this and it is hard to understand a situation without living through it yourself and it becoming personal.

I feel like Muslim women should move from France because it's not right but that's just the way it over there. It's not like if they tried to do something like that America that wouldn't be able to fly because we have the freedom of religion here.

There is a lot of the word fair being thrown around in your questions and life just isn't fair. Yes, I don't agree with most of what is going on or being said but it happens regardless.

The way that Muslim men treat has something to do with what the is in the Quran I believe.

I have a Muslim friend that is in my community group and he wouldn't answer the phone when he knows that a female is trying to call him. So she calls me to call him and ask if he's coming to a meeting.

I wouldn't mind that at all being in that situation of not being able to see her until wedding day. You know how she is as a person and get to know her more than just the surface. I kind of like it because it forces people to not be as superficial as they currently are.

The burka thing is not just what men dictates I believe it's in the Quran but I don't have the verses on hand to prove it to you. I'll have to do some research then get back to you on that one.

Major invasion of human rights to outlaw them entirely. Can't believe that passed to be honest. That being said, there are exceptions. I remember a case in Toronto years ago where a woman wouldn't take off her burka for a drivers liscence photo.

Exactly my opinion as well. They should certainly be allowed to wear them if they so desire but when it comes to things like driver's license photos, I'm sorry, but they need to show their face like everybody else.

I watched a documentary a while ago on the topic that was actually very eye opening. In summary, burkas are not worn out of shame, but to protect the female body from men. Similarly, it's not that the women are segregated, it's that the single men are.

At home amongst family and other women, they dress like any other woman in the Western world. It's merely men on the outside who are not permitted to view them.

This is obviously a Reader's Digest version of things, but essentially, I believe it's a cultural decision, and that France is violating these women's religious rights. If we're talking soley about the burka, I don't consider it a form of oppression based on what I know of it.

How can we be talking about whether or not this is a violation of Muslim women's rights, when in muslim countries like Iran, women's rights are being violated in such an unquestionable fashion?

If you were a woman which rights would you rather see challenged? (If you are a woman... just ignore the first part... actually just in general as people, what's more important - you're right to wear certain religious clothing, or your right not to be hung for random **** just because of your gender or any other stupid reason? ) <- right bracket because I didn't forget that this was a bracket type dealio.

Because those are two different subjects.

Anywhere else in the world yes France is violating their religious rights but i don't know France's history and what their laws are or w/e so for them to change this ruling and make it.

I believe it's fine for France to do it because that's how they choose to run their country. They probably don't have anything related to religious rights in their country. Maybe they do, I don't know.

Those women should just move to a different country that recognizes that people have the right to their own religion.

Just get up and leave? Alot of them would have been living there for a very long time, and would have become citizens. Migrating is a major decision to make.

Sure it is a big decision to make but if they respect their religious convictions then they would move instead of going against it and not wearing them.

I guess it's not an option for France to respect any culture other than French?

Seems that way, that's why i say it's better to move to another country that is more respectful of other cultures/religions.

**** that. I am not going to move out a country I am now a citizen just because the country's law will not accept my religion dress. It's wrong to stereotype an entire religion as extremists in the first place, so taking away the right for women to wear a burka is reinforcing this stereotype.

they fucking hate the English, as far as I know

on topic - Muslim women here only cover their hair, burqas are strongly discouraged here, mostly citing it's a desert thing to keep the sand out of their faces

there's no neccessity to wear a hair scarf, neither is there any prohibition against burqas here but most Muslim girls wear hair-scarves

and neways, Muslims here are horny as all get out, I don't see how a burqa would be of any help

Ok, this is a topic that I know a lot about, since I study Arabic language and literature, and the Islamic culture studies go with that. Anyway, many experts agree that burqa isn't something Islamic and that it came from the period before Islam. When Islam came to be, some famous women wore burqa as a fashion accessory and that's how it became connected to Islam. I always said that fashion is something that will ruin humanity.
And today in many countries women wear burqas and they think that it's the only way. If someday someone said that they are no longer obligated to wear them, I am sure that most of them still would do it.
Last year I studied modern Arabic literature and for that class I had to read a lot of Arabic books, and the one I liked the most was Dreams of Trespass: Tales of a Harem Girlhood written by Fatema Mernissi, a Moroccan sociologist and feminist. The book is written in the form of memoirs, but mostly deals with Mernissi's childhood, as harems were still legal in Morocco when she was a child. Anyway, Mernissi, a feminist, says that the women are equally responsible for the inequity as men are, and that is very well explained in the book

Worse, it's violating the basic human rights.

Isn't France's opposition to the burka, now made law, essentially against the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights (ironically adopted in France)?

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."

If you consider the burka as a representation of one's religious belief, than taking it away goes against this article. I guess the question would be, shouldn't muslim women have the democratic right to wear what they want just as the Western women have the right to wear miniskirts (and essentially these women being banned from the burka are Western women as well)? I wonder what would happen if there was a ban on immodesty honestly.

Which only goes to show that the so-called 'human rights' as declared by the UN isn't worth the ink it's printed with.

Why would you want to stay in a country that clearly doesn't respect your right to religion?

They aren't going to just change their decision. I think it's better to move to a country that will instead of being stubborn and staying somewhere like that but that's just my opinion.

That's the first time I laughed today, I love the saying "as all get out". Thanks!

I think it is related - because it sets up a huge double standard.

What you're saying is that society has to respects religions rights, while religion doesn't have to respect human rights.

People have a right to believe whatever they want - I'm 100% against thought crime - but what are religious rights? Do people have a right to do whatever they want if they believe it is inspired by supernatural forces?

And if you want to say this is more cultural than religious (Islam is a religion of culture), then the same question applies.

No, that's not what he said. Religion cannot have any rights, only people can, including the right to practice faith in a certain religion.

I'm not saying that at all actually and have no idea why you'd think I was saying that.

probably the single most unintelligent post ever to mar the pages of mb.

why don't you bestow upon us your great knowledge then oh wise one?

you haven't even contributed anything to the topic.

All you did was come into the thread to hate on me

I didn't come here to "bestow my great knowledge" or to hate on you, but when I saw that post I couldn't keep quiet. It's indefensible, incredibly ignorant, and reflects the mental maturity of a six year old.

well you should have kept quiet because you have nothing of importance to say.

According to the French Right, it denies Frances ability to be secular. As a nation, they can make that call. If a french woman were in Saudi Arabia, she wouldn't be able to drive herself around.

You all have options to move.

How about all the dipshits of this planet move to mars and do us all a favour.

Yeah, dipshits, pack your baggs.

Grow up. I called you out because you said something extremely idiotic, and because you haven't contributed anything of real value to this conversation. It astounds me that, even though you are merely someone who wanders into many conversations without having any frame of reference as a means of making yourself more popular, members here still tolerate you and your inane babbling.

Either start educating yourself about the things you discuss, or start following your own advice.

Or you'll all be packing your baggs!

buncha douche baggs

The debate about moving out of one's country because someone did not respect a particular right of yours...ok I'll take the bait. The simple question would be why? Why should a particular group willingly leave due to a smite on their religious freedom even though (as in this case) both UN laws and even France's constitutional rights are against this? Where are these people supposed to go and who is to say it is not going to happen again as what is acceptable in one country might become acceptable in another just to keep "these people" out (with the standard "Well you know we are stepping it up against terrorism" rather than just admitting it for being anti-muslim intolerant behaviour). Because these same laws are being bounced around in Belgium, Holland, and other countries in the EU and I would not be surprised if it happens some where else. And then what else would be banned next (and I cannot think of any other religious groups who have been denyed the freedom to worship their own religion in Europe..oh wait..wasn't there a bit about Jewish rights in the 1940's in Germany )? And it is not as if this particular group just appeared in France overnight..many have been born in France and have ties to the country.

I think that this ruling in the end handles more about culture domination rather than religious intolerance. Yes the burka can be considered a symbol of relgion but (from reading the papers), I think the French government is seeing it more as rather a piece of clothing that segregates you from the rest of the public and therefore making you a non-conformist. You live in France, be more French in other words. I realize that they have done this with relgious symbols in the schools and such (and not just with symbols of islam) but it just feels to me that if you are wearing a scarf on your head rather than tied fashionably around your throat, you will not be accepted there. Which to me, is wrong.

^ post of the thread.

So the French President is trying to be a feminist and feel like Muslim women shouldn't have to hide themselves but he needs to educate himself because it's against their religion to be out in public without their burquas.

I agree with you ,Liljagare that it is very wrong and essentially a slippery slope because if they can get away with this in the future they can get away with other atrocities.

The main reason I say that the women should move because while this is being debated the law is already in place so they either have to follow it and go against their own religion or pay the fine. If they feel as strongly in their religious convictions enough to wear the burqa in the first place it would be easier to move for the time being until this stupid law is removed.

It is plain stubborn to just say why should they have to move. Sure they shouldn't have to move but to be realistic it's already too late and women are being fined for wearing their religious attire.

You've explained it three times and still there is no real need for an entire congregation of Muslims to move based on the laws and opinions of others. If this happened the Indian's would have moved away from Britain years ago from the treatment they received.

Okay, so you just want them to stay there go against the law and pay the fines that they constantly get.

Got it.

Well if that is their choice then so be it. You can't tell all those people to move if they don't like it, they'd laugh in your face. Change is only made when effort is made towards changing it. Laws aren't always permanent.