The Concept of Pride
 

May as well start a thread about this to see if pride (in any shape or form) is a positive characteristic to have...

I think it's necessary to feel some for yourself, or I imagine you'd be feeling like a very depressed and worthless individual, particularly in a competitive world like we live in.

Individual pride I think makes sense, at least if you did something to achieve that pride.

Racial pride, national pride, and pride in a sports team (and anything like that) doesn't really make much sense to me though since your basically taking credit for what others accomplished just because you happened upon them by random chance. Though even so, I still take pride in my sports teams winning championships, willingly knowing I did nothing to get them there :)

you said everything I wanted to say in a nutshell

/thread

Oh yes. I had no pride in myself whatsoever, and I felt horrible for a good couple years. I had no care about school or doing much of anything. Eventually I came around, and now I feel fantastic. I'm gonna be an amazing designer.

Racial pride I don't understand. But being proud of your culture I completely understand. And as I said in the other thread, I don't see how you couldn't be proud about how we became a country and how we got here. It's not that I'm taking credit at all. I admire the people (founding fathers) who made it so that we are where we are today. And I am proud of them. And I am proud that we fought against oppression and won. Am I proud of McDonald's and Wal-Mart, our obesity rate and how fucked our education system is? No. So when I say I'm proud to be from here, I'm more referring to that than the current state of things. Now don't think that I have a U.S. flag hanging from my car, and automatically assume that every other country is inferior to us. That's not it at all. I enjoy culture as a whole, so I admire most all countries.

Self-esteem is necessary, according to psychologists, but let's forget about them for the moment. Self-esteem is just a form of recognition of the truth, in which the "truth" is your own value in relation to something else. I assume we are all interested in truth here, so I won't bother defending why we should seek it.

It is a "positive characteristic" to feel pride that is warranted, meaning that it is based in truth. Often times, people have a distorted view of value, giving value to things that are valueless. How does being part of a certain skin color give us more value? It doesn't, so any "racial pride" seems ludicrous. If someone is intelligent, though, then it is healthy and rational that they recognize it. It is a motivation to become more intelligent. Yeah, if they start saying, "I am the best," then we look at them like they're a ****, but that is because they really aren't the best. Plus, real pride isn't gained from saying something like, "I am the best." That is only an expression, whereas the actual source of the pride is in the accomplishment itself.

This idea was debated at length here.

To be fair, one could argue that accomplishments (that result in pride) aren't any more under our control then, say, our race or appearance since our genetics and environment are responsible for decision-making. That gets into the debate about free will though.

Hmm, that's a little too tenuous for my liking.

What do you mean?

Basically if free will doesn't exist then we have nothing to take pride in because we have as much control over our accomplishments as the color of our skin. Unless your ok with taking pride in your skin color :pimp:

I think that you could make the argument that our accomplishments aren't completely rooted in us, but there is noticeable difference between being born into a certain race, and training and doing well in a marathon. It is a bit of a stretch to say that there is no difference in regards to responsibility.

Yeah I think it depends on your belief as to how much our actions are actually our decisions and not our conditioned responses to the things around us.

I'm not saying I believe what I posted earlier necessarily, but I do think it makes for an interesting debate.

I don't think accomplishments should be the only source of pride. Shouldn't you be able to take pride in your culture? You surely didn't do anything to it. In fact, it is the way it is BECAUSE of the people before you.

Absolutely, pride is an invention of nature.

It isn't a matter of whether one should or shouldn't take pride in one's culture, it is a matter of whether or not that is possible. Pride, as in self-esteem, cannot be found in something that is not of ourself. We can value our culture, and we can be content that we exist in such a culture, but we cannot take pride in our culture.

That's what I thought. I was confused on whether the point was being made that pride could only come from accomplishment. That definitely isn't the case, but I think it's mainly just because that's what's being discussed right now.

It most definitely is the case if the term pride can't be applied to something like cultural achievements.

We could be simply responding to the things around us, but didn't we still train and do well int he marathon.

I think that the issue lies in our definition of responsibility rather than the question of whether the will to action originates in us.

Why does pride have to be so in line with "self". Why can't you be proud of something bigger than yourself? And I'm curious as to what you feel drives those who take part in strictly cultural things. Like these singers:



I would say that they are proud of their heritage, and are trying to further it.

I wasn't saying pride couldn't apply to cultural achievements, just that I don't believe pride can ONLY come from accomplishment.

I'm not necessarily proud of anything, and I am perfectly happy.

I am not arguing that these people are not motivated by the value they put on their culture, but I wouldn't call it "pride." We are just arguing over definition. Couldn't someone not of that culture still make that kind of music and enjoy that culture? Absolutely, and it is the value they put on their culture that drives those singers.

Regardless of whether this is true or not, this is simply not an argument/statement you want to use when your are in a debate/conversation/whateveryoucallit. How are people supposed to understand you?

That's the same conclusion I've come to. I mean, if someone said "I love pizza", I wouldn't argue with them and say that "you don't REALLY love pizza. You just enjoy eating it and think it tastes good". You just see the definition of pride differently than I do. I am not as severe about it. I went to my favorite site (Thesaurus.com) and these four definitions came up: "self-esteem", "arrogance", "treasure", and "take pleasure in accomplishment". Treasure is the one that I was using.

It's fairly easy to understand... it's just a bit vague. I suppose I would rather mediate this debate and keep moving it in the right direction than actively participate in it. So, disregard that statement.

So, to start us off in the right direction, let us cover CanwllCorfe's four definitions of pride. Debate the negative/positive aspects of each, define it in detail (in the most objective way possible), etc -- "self-esteem" seems to be an appropriate one to begin with.

I am satisfied with who I am, but not regularly proud of myself.
I am sometimes very proud of friends of mine who achieve something, especially when they do so 'despite' other stuff. No matter what.

I don't get pride for countries and so on. That just doesn't work for me.

I think it good to be proud of accomplishments, even if they aren't necessarily yours (your country, job, family heritage, etc). It's not bragging or taking credit for something you didn't do, but I feel like it's important to recognize positive contributions and feel good about them. I'm proud of tons of people and things in my life, even though I recognize they are not my own accomplishments. It isn't all inclusive either, I can be proud of certain aspects and ashamed or indifferent to others. Blind pride in something though isn't good, there has to be a reason behind it or it's meaningless.

In another aspect of pride, I feel like people are sometimes too proud to take a job that might be loowed down upon by their social peers. Or too 'proud' to shop at a surplus store with generic brands. In my life, my mother taught me a long time ago when to be proud and when to not be. She is proud of the life she has put around her family and the obstacles she has overcome as a person and us as a family. At the same time, she isn't too proud to use 3 million coupons and buy generic brands so she can save a few hundred bucks every time she gets groceries.

If that makes sense.

I am a proud person to a degree, but I am not proud enough of my achievements as I should be. I have a brilliant education and I need to be proud of myself for it.

I don't like asking things of people or admitting I'm failing at something, so that is the negative part of my pride.

Pride is necessary. Otherwise, people around you might take advantage of your low self-esteem and make you feel horrible. But your pride should not turn into arrogance. So there needs to be a balance.

Well that's perfectly put what I would have said.