Basically if free will doesn't exist then we have nothing to take pride in because we have as much control over our accomplishments as the color of our skin. Unless your ok with taking pride in your skin color :pimp:

I think that you could make the argument that our accomplishments aren't completely rooted in us, but there is noticeable difference between being born into a certain race, and training and doing well in a marathon. It is a bit of a stretch to say that there is no difference in regards to responsibility.

Yeah I think it depends on your belief as to how much our actions are actually our decisions and not our conditioned responses to the things around us.

I'm not saying I believe what I posted earlier necessarily, but I do think it makes for an interesting debate.

I don't think accomplishments should be the only source of pride. Shouldn't you be able to take pride in your culture? You surely didn't do anything to it. In fact, it is the way it is BECAUSE of the people before you.

Absolutely, pride is an invention of nature.

It isn't a matter of whether one should or shouldn't take pride in one's culture, it is a matter of whether or not that is possible. Pride, as in self-esteem, cannot be found in something that is not of ourself. We can value our culture, and we can be content that we exist in such a culture, but we cannot take pride in our culture.

That's what I thought. I was confused on whether the point was being made that pride could only come from accomplishment. That definitely isn't the case, but I think it's mainly just because that's what's being discussed right now.

It most definitely is the case if the term pride can't be applied to something like cultural achievements.

We could be simply responding to the things around us, but didn't we still train and do well int he marathon.

I think that the issue lies in our definition of responsibility rather than the question of whether the will to action originates in us.

Why does pride have to be so in line with "self". Why can't you be proud of something bigger than yourself? And I'm curious as to what you feel drives those who take part in strictly cultural things. Like these singers:



I would say that they are proud of their heritage, and are trying to further it.

I wasn't saying pride couldn't apply to cultural achievements, just that I don't believe pride can ONLY come from accomplishment.