Music: Can it have a universal understanding?
 

I've asked a few people in the shoutbox to send me their opinions on a track, I've been trying to grasp something on my own, and now I'm asking you folks.

I'm talking specifically about the emotional response from the music specifically. I don't care about lyrics or opinion of bands. If you're going to answer this, I'd appreciate people sparring us the talking points and giving a genuine honest answer.

Why I ask: Perhaps this defines me as certifiable, but every now and then I'll listen to a track and it will paint a scenario for me. I apply it to places I've been in my life, but regardless of locale, its the same situation. And it doesn't change even if its 14 years after the first time I've heard the song. So to come to the radical root of the question: Do musical notes, or arrangements, or some form of counterpuntal interplay draw a certain perspective inherently, if only within a cultural grouping (i.e. Does it draw the same distinction in, say, The West).

Thanks.

I would say no and I don't think it's just restricted to culture. One example that springs to mind is The Church. On several occasions I've heard people refer to them as "depressing" which is unfathomable to me as I find their music to be beautiful, mellow and atmospheric, but certainly not depressing. Granted that example is a band not a specific song but I think it makes the point. Another example is the numerous times that I've heard punk songs that I find energetic and upbeat described as "angry" by other people.

I don't think it's possible, either. That's why people have different tastes in music, after all.

I'll use the example of albums that "grow on you" over time. On first listen, maybe you didn't quite understand where the musician was coming from. Maybe you even thought it was total crap. However it happens, though, eventually you end up loving it. I think that's because you had to find the proper angle to approach the music. Find the subtleties that really click with you. I don't think two people will appreciate the same subtleties. Some may find nothing to appreciate.

I do have to say, though, there are certain songs that can have a universal understanding, but that's usually because the lyrics are so blatantly clear that it's really impossible to interpret it some other way.

I agree with Janszoon here. Our interpretations of something are often depicted by what we are brought up to believe is funny.
This is an example of how society effects your thinking:
If you are brought up in, say, Africa then you know that blacks generally do blue collar work and whites generally do white collared work. That is how it is.
If you are brought up in, say, America then you know that you can't call them 'black' or '******', that you have to treat them fairly, ect, ect. That is how things are.

Huh? Why are you bringing this strange, poorly-informed, and very racist sounding comparison into this thread?

I'm still trying to figure out how that relates to music...

Reading this, I don't think he/she (what are you!?) meant to be racist.

.....
First off, it was an example of how society affects our interpretations of things.
Second, what part of it is 'poorly-informed'?
I did not mean offense by what I said, I just said it as it is.

Thank you!!
It's not meant to be racist!


sorry for the double post

Everything from the blanket assumptions about "how it is" in the entire continent of Africa to the erroneous notion that calling black people black is some kind of insult in America.

'N' word alert

cue sirens!!! :yikes::yikes::yikes:

I wasn't even talking about that to be honest.

If any song does it, it has to be Hendrix. Not everyone loves Hendrix but it's very very hard to find people who don't at least like him.

Depressing might not be the most accurate description of The Church or their music, then again one to think about how much does that person know about the band, if their only experience of The Church (for example) is "Under The Milky Way" then they are basing their opinion of The Church's music on the one song. Now if they said The Church is a favorite of theirs and their music is depressing, of all the ways to describe the band's music why would they say "depressing?" What intrigues me isn't what people say is why they say it. Anyway calling a band "depressing" is not the same as dismissing a band. Sometimes it good to feel sad, and some bands I'm into because they are just that, they're depressing.


Music: Can it have a universal understanding?
Music could be considered to have an universal understanding, in that it transcends borders and cultural differences and regardless of language difference music speaks to the soul, but it still up to the person who listening to it whether they like it or not.

No, they might not get the same meaning (for example) what if they came from the same country with the same background there are no guarantees they'll like the same music, all for various reasons. Yet in the case of the 18 people with different backgrounds out them if you could find out a few who had some emotional connection to the song, it would be for different personal reasons, I would think.

TheBig3,
There are different points, some are general and some are more on the personal level of listener's experience. I understand the part where you explain your emotional connection to a song, but I don't fully understand the radical root question.

..... dude ... seriously.
If that is how you think then I seriously am not going to argue with you. You may proceed to live in your own little world there.
Besides, you missed the entire point of what I said. I just agreed with what you said and you jump down my throat like I just blasphemed against everything logical. I might not live in America but I know enough about it to know that you are brought up being 'politically correct'. However, I have lived in Africa most of my life and the general attitude of it is as I said. Really in the end you are making a fuss out of nothing.

everybody is their own person no matter what anyone says or thinks everybody's different, no matter how similar they may seem, nothing is ever the same precisely, if you're talking about a "gist" meaning i'd say possibly but there would be atleast slight differences

Yes I think I can tell you don't live in the US, we no longer differentiate ourselves through "color" anymore, (well at least in some respects) people really don't say "blue" collared or "white" collared jobs to differentiate social status anymore. There isn't that distinction of color in America like maybe that happens in Africa in respects with regards to colour stratifying one's social position through "blue" and "white" epithets. In America the blue colored collar work shirt has been replaced by the "golf shirt", and now their called "service sector jobs" not "blue" collar jobs or sometimes if its a real crappy job it's called "McJob" (NB the word McJob is a portmanteau of "Mc Donalds" and "Job" and it has nothing with the way Irish were treated in America.) Well not to backpedal, but in some cases, color does play a role like in America like in politics, it is heavy divide among the color line, there is the "Red" and "Blue," the former pertains to the Republican Party and the latter pertains to the Democratic Party.

And since you lived in Africa, what are your thought of artists and bands blending African music with Pop music, like Peter Gabriel, Paul Simon, or some African hip-hop? I would say I a fan of Peter Gabriel and I like the band Extra Golden, back to the subject what is your emotional reaction to those bands?

The simple answer is no, it isn't. Academic studies regarding this exact subject have been performed and peer reviewed adequately enough to form a basis of evidence.

The only consistent cross-cultural reaction to music is that slow music and fast music provoke calm and agitated reactions respectively. There has been absolutely no evidence uncovered of any kind that other styles of music evoke similar feeligns on a broadly cross-cultural level.

And to be honest, we can end the thread here. I'm sure you'll all want to discuss it further, but the fact is, people with far more money, time, resources, and experience than any of us have successfully proven this theory to be incorrect.

You made a totally bizarre post and I commented on it. You asked me a question and I answered it. Not sure how that's "making a fuss" or being "politically correct". Seems like you're making a much bigger fuss than I am to be honest.

:laughing:

It's alright. Most people who've lived in America their entires lives don't know anything about it either.

(zing)

P.S. I get the gist of what you're saying, PurpleWolf, I'm still working on how it relates to this thread though :p:

Alright well thanks everybody.

So music has no inherent plot because black people in africa, who come to america, cannot be called "******."

Cool.

That is the same exact answer I get from my friend when I tell him things I've heard on the History Channel, like German scientist developing flying saucers during WWII etc. etc.

Well, how far apart must the cultures be, American and Russian, or maybe like Western & Asian. I'm sure if something that sounds melancholy in music to a Russian would be to an American too, no? Does the Shakuhachi create the same kind of suspense when use in a score in a movie for a Japanese person as it would for a non-Japanese person?

Janszoon said that it was partly related to their culture.
I agreed and gave an example about how two different people can have two different views on the same topic when they grow up through different cultures.

What exactly is meant when you say Universal Understanding? I mean if its that vague then yes and no. Take 10 people and listen to Cannibal Corpse and I bet you they all feel a little angry. Take those same people and play them some Jimi and they will probably all want to dance and smoke some weed. Now they are all feeling anger, pleasure, and different urges but for different reasons based on culture and upbringing. So depending on how you define understand the answer is always going to be different.

Studies have been done with people whom have never heard western music. They asked them how certain songs made them feel, and there answers were very similar to the average American citizen.

Oh, so in addition to making a bizarre and not particularly relevant comparison you also misunderstood my comment. Got it.

I somehow doubt you are capable of speaking for the general attitude of an ENTIRE CONTINENT.

Well thats to be expected. One medium is for entertainment and the other is entirely academic. I'm just saying that the premise of the thread is interesting, but has been explored in depth by others who have come to some remarkably solid conclusions, backed up by research eveidence.

Your second comment is an undefined factor, but I have a hard time comprehending how on earth we'd even begin to test that.

And what proof do you have that the History Channel is for purely entertainment purposes only? :)

I was not asking you to begin a test, I was hoping you would rely on people with far more money, time, resources, and experience than any of us have. :)

I don't totally disagree with you, that someone from an entirely different culture would not (might not) relate to a musical passage (for example) happy or sad, whimsical or serious, etc etc. Because I believe some of those things are conditional. Say that every time you watched a movie as a kid when you heard motif that used tubas and kettle drums you would see an elephant walk by, fast-forward as adult you heard the same motif and was asked what does that sound like you mostly likely respond "an elephant." But if you played the same motif to someone else in another country who didn't have the chance to watch movies you've seen, you would probably not get the same answer, maybe he had a similar experience with a different movie and employed a similar motif.

Much the point.

What you're essentially discussing is the beginnings of semiotics - A discipline of study rooted in discovering how we come to define meaning.

Its seperate, of course, to the studies which concluded there is no universal meaning behind music beyond agitation and calmness, but its extremely related.