cardboard adolescent

The problem is that it's very difficult to overcome desires by struggling against them. Struggling against your desires just ends up giving them fuel and fire. When we're really aware of the desire, really aware of the sensation that we're so attached to, really aware of the consequences of giving in, the undesirable desire fades away by itself. The key is to recognize that what we believe is a great pleasure is actually causing us to suffer, because it's making us agitated or because it has negative consequences.

The hardest victory is the victory over self, but it's the self that desires to struggle and fight. The hardest victory is giving in to peace, and peace is the simplest path

GeddyBass2112

I spoke French until I was 5 and went to school. Don't speak it as much as I'd like, so I'm rusty.

Sometimes it's not about completely denying yourself something but channeling it into something more positive and useful. There's a thing called 'jíhad' in Islam which means 'struggle' or 'striving' and which basically means undertaking those things you find difficult and seeking God in those things to help you. This is the REAL meaning of jihad.

For example, lust is seen as a bad thing in most religions, but channeling that feeling towards that person into a meaningful relationship is not. Same with things like gluttony: overeating and greed are seen as bad things, as well as eating 'bad' foods, whilst following a strict diet (whether it be the prescribed kosher/halal diets, or simply the more simple religious edict to not be greedy and look after the body) can have a reward, both mentally and physically, spiritually and emotionally.

I LOVE Aristotle! I'm sigging this when I can...

VEGANGELICA

Geddy, I like this thoughtful point you make about how struggling to do those things we find difficult but important can be very uplifting.

Some of the actions I've taken in my life that were most meaningful to me (such as deciding to become vegetarian and then vegan out of concern for other animals) were ones that required me to break out of my habits and old way of thinking as I worked toward a goal that felt more in keeping with who I was or wanted to be.

I've never thought of myself as observing any kind of religious belief in becoming vegetarian and then vegan...it was more observing my *own* feelings...yet I do remember when I learned about Buddhism and Hinduism that I felt comforted to know that what I felt had been given a name (ahimsa) because so many other people felt the same way as I:

I think it is interesting how I ended up deciding to be vegetarian when I was an isolated child in a meat-eating family and community...while halfway around the world there were huge numbers of people who had taken this same path as part of major spiritual religious philosophies. I would have liked to have known that at the time.

I see how spiritual organizations, whether secular or religious, can help encourage people to achieve their personal goals, which may actually be the goal of thinking more about others. Then observing the organizations' ideals for behavior is a way to practice using your will to obtain your own goals, such as the goal of living a healthier, kinder life.

I'm never sure to what degree my Unitarian Universalist background as a little child influenced my future choice to become vegetarian for the first time in elementary school, and later vegan as an adult. I imagine that thinking about the UU concepts helped set the stage for me to think about other sentient beings besides humans, since Unitarian Univeralist principles (themselves derived from a variety of religions including Buddhism and Hinduism) include...

* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

As a child learning about these concepts, I felt that justice for "all" should include my animal kin, and I would best respect them by not eating them, just as I would not want to be eaten.

Ideally, I feel that observing a spiritual concept about a way to behave shouldn't be about observing a rule that is external to yourself, but instead should revolve around observing how the concept resonates with what is already inside you. I can see how having a spiritual organization of people who uphold a value that resonates with what you feel is very core to who you are would enable you to better observe what is in your own self, and follow your conscience rather than just move rather thoughtlessly through life, copying what others do and not listening to your own inner voice.

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GeddyBass2112

Well it's true. The reward for persevering and sticking to whatever you're trying to acheive will nearly always outweigh the initial difficulties and problems of doing it.

Sometimes it's those habits and old ways of thinking which can be the most damaging. They essentially act as filters and color any other feelings or actions. Discovering what you really think or feel is mostly about bypasing and getting rid of these.

I'm currently going through psychotherapy, and one of the biggest parts of the process is really about finding out what internal rules or thoughts I've formed for myself, why they've been formed and how I can deal with them to get rid of them. Some of these thoughts, such as my feeling I'm never good enough, have been quite damaging.

Sometimes these things go beyond being about any one religious system or a particular system. Going to what you say in the last section of your post about how principles should and do stem from internal principles, it seems that well before you found out about the name of these principles and things you were thinking (the ahimsa thing) were known to you, you were already very much in tune with them.

That would make sense. I'm a believer that my upbringing among people of all sorts of different races, religions and backgrounds may have served to point me in the direction I'm going in now with regard to religion. Bear in mind my family isn't particularly religious. It was school and socially that I started to meet people of other religions, other cultures and languages, and really learn for myself about spirituality and religion. Made me really think and get out the vaguely Christian rut of my family.

This is what Judaism teaches. Judaism teaches that mere blind faith and practice is a bad thing indeed, whether it be belief in God or following a mitvot or keeping Shabbat. It's not just some external law which has to be followed but something which you have to find some connection with personally on a mental and emotional level.
For example, I keep Shabbat because for me personally, the idea of a representation of what it is like to be in the World To Come is important for me personally. The structures of Shabbat help me acheive that goal of being able to dedicate myself to G-d in a way which is to me personally meaningful. So the whole concept of Shabbat isn't anything 'new' to me in some ways, but it simply agrees with something I already held to be important.

Zaqarbal

To break that absurd taboo according to which all religious figures are, by definition, more "respectable" than the rest of human beings (past, present and future) on this planet.

I was stating a general approach to the matter. That is, from a global point of view, not necessarily religious. I mean, the main question was: why would anyone (religious or not) follow those principles? And my aim was to contrast moral autonomy with blind obedience.

It doesn't matter. I just wanted to remark the eminently rustic nature of the three Abrahamic religions' origin.

Peoples create their religion in their own image and likeness. And the historical and geographical context play a key role here. People's knowledge of the physical world has a reflection on their religious world. Thus, a narrow husbandry geographic area corresponds with a narrow and simplistic religious view.


Exactly. On Earth as it is in Heaven. Or In Heaven as it is on Earth. Or in other words: in religion (and therefore in morals) as it is on the land. Physical sheeps projected on moral sheeps. Sheep. The stupid animal par excelence, who always needs to be guided. Only suitable for blind obedience. - "Abraham, kill your son!" - "At your orders, my Lord!"


As an opposition, the Greek Civilization. Explored the entire Mediterranean Basin:

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Neapolitan

"Abrahamic Religions" is a misnomer, the fact is Abraham never started three religions, he is only mentioned in those religious texts.

So that can't be so bad if it is simplistic, so it follows lex parsimoniae why is it ok for athiest to habitually invoke Ockham's Razor when one mentions God, if one says "God created the universe" that too complicated because of Ockham's Razor, but when it comes to religion "simplicity" is not good enough? Sometimes the mark of genius is doing something in a more simplistic way than others would do.

As far as sheep being "stupid" I have to object, that's only your understand of sheep, it doesn't reflect how they feel about themselves and they are a lot smarter than you think they are.

We are all born without knowledge and need to be taught and guided, we all learn from someone else. George Lucas said that a person will always be in need some mentor, someone to help them even till old age. He studied all religions around the world and to him that relationship between a teacher and a student is important, and something he explored in his space epic - Star Wars.
So even if a person says he rejects religion, there is some philosopher or other writer he reads and study, as if that person needs to be guided by them.

The Akeidat Yitzchak is one of the most import stories in the Bible. Stories from the Bible are very interesting and are food for thought, and comentaries are just as enlightening.


I don't share your view that the ancient Hebrews were just rubes herding sheep and therefore less cosmopolitan or philosophical than other civilizations or religions. Reading the Bible you would learn that in their stories they also came in contact with other people wether they were captured, enslaved, sought alliance with, the only difference is that the plot of their story was to hold fast to their faith.

"lt's the centurion's faith that wins him divine favor." - (Randy Quaid) Kingpin

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GeddyBass2112

If I truly believed that God was telling me to do something, I would do it.

Although this would likely be the result:

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Cello fund: $300/$750.