Ah nah no worries. The Testament dispute/ 4 books thing is not something I'd expect most people to know about Islam. I didn't even know it till a few years back when I started getting interested and looking into my own religion a bit more.

I wouldn't have guessed that it's not your first language, you write it pretty damn well.

Yeah, I'm only really familar with the most basic aspects of Islam and even then my knowledge is patchy.

Also, quick question: I was always taught that music was banned in Islam? With the exception of singing, I've always been taught that any form of music is haraam or forbidden under Islam. yet I've also come across various orchestras and music groups in Islamic countries (the Palestinian Children's Orchestra is one that comes to mind).

And yeah, I was raised until the age of 5 or so speaking French. But cheers!

Methinks I'm gonna read the Qur'an again...

I don't think so. I'm from Turkey, there's a very rich musical culture there. Like 1000 years worth of folk songs, and it's been an Islamic culture as long as that.

Hell, the guitar was invented by Muslims.

I think it has something more to do with the topic of the music. Because I know it's not what you mean but the prayer call and the reading of the Qu'ran itself in Arabic is arguably music.

Only an extremist hardliner would say music is wrong or "Haram" altogether; the general rule I'm aware of is openly singing about sexual things or encouraging drug use etc. promoting anything which goes against the 5 pillars etc. is widely considered Haram. From one point of view, you could say bad music is Haram, although that's definitly subjective and I am talking about the Islamic point of view specifically.

But I don't give a crap I'm hardly a hardliner, I smoke weed, drink. Islam is in my heart but I go about it my own way. In my view, poorly played music is Haram, an insult to God's ears.

(there is a difference to learning and playing bad in my book though - it's do with level of effort/intention imo, you've gota put your soul into it. Nothing wrong with learning, it's progressive. Everyone plays shoddy at first, but it's the point of always trying to get better, not saying "this crap will suffice" compromise is whats bad imo)

Ah, thanks for clearing that one up.

only fundie Muslims ban music - in Malaysia, there's Islamic praise music, you know - (nasyid) and the most popular singers are usually Malays/Muslims

Now you know why I'm so confused. And yeah, doesn't surprise me that there IS Muslim music with actual musical instruments. As crukster was saying, there's a pretty strong Turkish music culture too.

The thing about the Turkish culture is because of the geographical location, Turkey and in particular Istanbul has always been a melting pot of cultures. Slavic, Romanic, Jewish, Christian, Greek, Turk etc. there's always been all sorts of people living there so the music has influences from all of these places; that is something that distinguishes it from say Iraq or Afghanistan. It's the Bridge between the East and West.

But speaking from a strictly religious viewpoint even, the Book of Dede Korkut is a Turkic folklore passed around all the old Turk states; Kyrghzstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijain etc. and it's from the first days of when the old nomads adopted Islam; it's all these stories about this old man who'd walk around with a Saz singing stories.

http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/images/saz.jpg

http://wiki-images.enotes.com/thumb/...00px-DQNAJ.JPG

This is a statue of the dude


And for 1000 years maybe, there have been wandering poets called "asiks" (ah-shooks) who would sing about all sorts; God, Work, lost Loves etc. I know Iran have something similar to that.


This is all very real, and very Islamic. There is this tendency to limit Islam to the middle eastern countries. But there are Islamic countries worldwide, Turkey, Malaysia like Il Duce said, even the Uighur state that went Rogue from China recently, many more

And all these countries are operating well within the bounds of Islam - arguably some of them contributed many of the things that are traditional to Islam. When a country is in a dire situation they cling to old traditions, which is arguably why the middle east is so fundamentalist. The West bombs the **** out of it, rapes the land and then asks why they're fundamentalist - cos you ****ed their home land up the arse and the religion is all they have left, thats ****in why derp!! And it bothers me that the World sees the entirety of Islam as fundamentalist and anti-proggressive. When in fact Islam is based on the very ideas of tolerance and progression. Compare it to what the Turks where doing before that - cutting your thriat and drinking it, raping and pillaging villages, wearing wolf skins and engaging in depraved rituals. That's fun and all, dont get me wrong I'd have a blast doing that. But when you look at the bigger picture, Islam has brought Humanity and our understanding of the Universe a long way.

As have Judaism and Christianity.

As have Buddhism, Hinduism.

As have most all religions that teach some decent Universal laws for people to live by.

One thing that turned me away from the Christian religion is their holy text.

I don't like the bible for the fact that I always felt like whoever translated the scrolls into the readable text that we have to today. Left out important information and just put in whatever they wanted to make it "work". There is documentation that there are several books that have been left out of the Bible that occurs in between the Old Testament and the New one.

I also don't like the fact that it was mainly Catholics that helped to translate the Bible. I have major issues with Catholics but I will get into that another time.

I have a question

Do Atheists consider themselves a religion? that just seems like an oxymoron to me.

So, am I to understand from this that you don't have your own ideology? or morals? or purpose? and that Judaism provides the nonsensical, reward-punishment way of life for you to follow so that you can think less?

Sounds like obscurantism and misology.