VEGANGELICA

I just read an excellent, disturbing article about the horrific conditions in puppy mills in the U.S., many of which are in Missouri, one state below me:

Animal rights activists made people in Missouri aware of the scope of the problem, and gathered more than 190,000 signatures in support of the Puppy Mill Cruelty Prevention Act, which was just passed on November 2nd to improve conditions in the state’s puppy breeding facilities.

So, this is a reminder to people that you CAN make a difference in ending abuse of animals. The first step is recognizing the abuse. So, I'm glad you made this thread, Vanilla!

Freebase is doing an excellent job arguing my side in this debate and doesn't leave much for me to say , but I'll comment, too!

Dirty, livestock animals are often kept in crowded conditions that are *not* what they would prefer. They suffer infections, extreme boredom, mutilation and worse.

Since humans do *not need to eat meat* but do so for pleasure, keeping animals to kill them for the pleasure of eating meat is not philosophically very different from people killing animals for other pleasures (fur, sadism, power), although I think most people don't *want* their "meat animals" to suffer...just usually not enough to stop eating them.

Vanilla showed the awful conditions of many egg-laying hens. Below is a video showing the conditions in which many pigs are raised...cramped, isolated, unable to lie down, and going crazy (bar biting and repetitive motion show this), with people killing undersized or ill babies by smashing their heads. This is REALITY in many factory farms or "concentrated animal feeding operations."

The reason people treat animals this way is that people like how they taste, people don't really care about the animals' feelings...and people like meat to be cheap.

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someonecompletelyrandom

Okay, I didn't read the whole thread... but I have noticed it's a bit of a Dirty witch hunt.

As an occasional eater of meat myself, I don't have the same moral objections to the killing of other species for sustenance. As some of you know, however, I am very critical of the big business of food and the meat industry and what it does to this planet. The conditions and "processing" these animals endure are horrible. It's a far cry from the natural hunting that other animals do, and the more humane farming that humans used to do. It's become commercialized, "farm" animals are treated as mere products. Seldom do people think of their McDonalds double as any animal in particular.

But I do eat meat. I have no moral objection to it so long as it comes from a source that isn't a feed lot. (There are some great alternatives to the Big 4 food companies popping up even in chain-grocery stores.)

That being said, I think what Dirty is getting at I agree with. Killing an animal for food is one thing. It at least serves a purpose. Not to mention most of us won't personally kill the animal we eat (unless we're hunters). Killing an animal just to watch it die... is something else entirely. That is sadistic. You simply want to see another living being die. Just to watch it die. Not to mention, animal torture is usually accompanied with this. And yes, as hypocritical as it is, common "pets" like cats and dogs are held with higher esteem than farm animals whom most of us are used to eating since birth. Eating a cat or dog sounds gross to us because we place "people traits" on them and recognize their own distinct personalties. Maybe if we spend some time with cows and chickens, we'd get to know them too?

But any way, yeah.

Paedantic Basterd

I was just thinking about zippocat this morning and how much I would like to burn that man alive himself.

EDIT: You know, were it not for the lawsuit, I would much prefer to run over a person with my car than an animal.

VEGANGELICA

I agree with you, Conan, that avoiding eating animals from factory farms is a good way to support healthier, happier lives for the animals. Yet even animals raised with thoughtful care face slaughter. Slaughterhouses are notorious for being places where people torture animals.

Some people, when they get in a position of power, simply like to pick on the weak. We saw this when U.S. personnel tortured humans in Abu Ghraib prison. And we see this when people torture animals and ignore their suffering in slaughterhouses. Even a "good" killing can go awry, leading to animals boiled alive, for example.

Since it is Thanksgiving soon in the U.S., I felt this undercover video of a turkey slaughterhouse would be appropriate:
House of Raeford Slaughterhouse Investigation - Mercy For Animals

The video shows:
•Turkeys with broken wings and legs, bloody open wounds, tumors and other untreated injuries being slaughtered for human consumption
•A worker violently punching live, shackled turkeys for "fun"
•Employees forcefully shoving their hands into the cloacae (vaginal cavities) of live chickens to extract eggs in order to break them for "fun"
•Turkeys and chickens being thrown across the facility and up into the air
•Workers ripping the heads off live turkeys
•Birds being intentionally crushed to death under the wheels of trucks
•Conscious turkeys having their throats slit

I didn't know who zippocat was; now I do.

I knew a boy here who lit a cat on fire in a bag. He said he thought it was funny to see the bag hop around across the yard until the cat died. I wondered what led him to have this callous attitude.

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Dirty

I live in a wooded, rural area when I am at home, and there's always little animals running out on the road. I don't think it's ever a good idea to try and swerve to avoid an animal. If they are dumb enough to run out in front of a moving car, then I am not gonna be dumb enough to swerve and risk hitting a tree or losing control of my car, or worst of all hitting another car.

Paedantic Basterd

No, swerving is dangerous. You're best off braking, and if it's a moose or a bear, you're ****ed no matter what you do. I'm just saying, that if I could pick between running over a cat and running over a dude, I think I'd rather hit the dude.

When I hear these kinds of stories, I'm overwhelmed with the urge to take a meat tenderizer and bludgeon the offender's face into an unrecognizable, bloody pulp.

Dirty

I understand where others are coming from, I just don't agree. Nothing in this thread is new info to me, I know that animals are sometimes tortured while being killed for the meat that I eat. I am definitely not opposed to killing animals for meat, and I wish it could always be done in the least painful way possible. People kicking and punching animals for no reason isn't something I agree with. But what do you want me to do, just change my opinion on things because you guys want me to? We are all justsaying our opinions here, quit acting like I am any different because I disagree. The killing of animals is not screwed up to me. I feel like people are over sensitive sometimes to killing livestock or something. Animals kill each other for food all the time, there's millions of animals who do this. It's part of life. Nobody seems the least bit upset when an antelope or zebra is attacked and ripped apart by a pack of animals. I feel like people have their own thoughts and way of thinking and sometimes apply that same mentality to animals. As much as I get knocked on this forum for supposedly 'knowing what animals think,' so many of you are doing the same exact thing. We don't know what animals think. And I don't want to lump all animals under the broad label of 'animal' because I think there is a difference between burning a cat and killing a cow for some beef.

skaltezon

The outlook's probably based on a person's experience with animals generally. I've tended pets and farm animals, which I think gives me a different slant than someone who's always seen them more remotely.

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s_k

Big, big animal peron here.
Love almost everything, except spiders I guess.
It's not like they can help it, but they just creep me out. Poor misunderstood creatures, I guess

I'm glad there's threads about animals here, they are often taken 'for granted' on Forums that are about something totally different.
But I must say, I was pretty shocked seeing this:
http://www.musicbanter.com/lounge/84...tml#post960449
Hope this images and stories like this pass on a regular bases?

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Guybrush

From the point of view of an animal who is going to be killed by humans for meat, then hunting is likely preferable to industrial farming. I'd rather be a deer living a natural life up until the point I get killed than be a pig born and raised in the average meat farm.

We meat eaters today are generally so removed from the realities of where our meat comes from. I think every meat eater who's prepared to defend their diet should kill a pig and slaughter it, preferably under the guidance of professionals. Not because I want people to kill pigs or because I think we should be vegetarians, but because I think they would then be faced somewhat with the fact that a carnivore diet has lethal consequences. I believe that having to kill your own pig or chicken, at least once, would teach a lot of people to respect more the animals that are forced to give up everything to feed us.

Hunters do this of course and generally, I think of hunting as one of the most ethical ways you can get meat on your plate (although it's not the best way to feed the hungry masses). The only other way I can think of that could morally compete would be to raise and slaughter the animals yourself and make sure they have happy lives while they last.

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