Transhumanism

Freebase Dali · 10-14-2010, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr dave

i don't want to get all religious and stuff (i'm really not).

but from my perspective just because it's cells and organs instead of nuts and bolts doesn't make the human body less of a machine. the soul is what's passed through and remains eternal.

i don't give half a crap what some religious text or some words from a scientist's mouth have to say on the issue. just because our individual ego is tied to the limited existence of the biological machine we inhabit doesn't mean we don't and haven't been living forever. it's my personal metaphysical perspective. the only person who needs to dig it is me.

i was just tossing 2 cents into the pile.

Jans was close though, not unprotected sex, but successful procreation.

Nah, I understand that it's strictly a personal perspective issue. Interesting one too.
My perspective is that there isn't a metaphysical element to our consciousness as individuals at all, and that the sense of being unique in our self awareness and transcendent above something as petty as meat and bones is just a function of some intricate mosaic of our intelligence and emotion that we don't fully understand. Given that, it's hard for me to imagine how transporting someone's consciousness into another entity would work. My stance on transhumanism in that regard is pretty much a logical default.
I'm ok with that too.

~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ · 10-15-2010, 12:21 AM

I've thought the same thing as you Freebase and Janzsoon. Often when people bring up cloning as a means of living forever I bring out that line of reasoning.

Personally, I think if you wanted to go that route to preserve your being, you might as well do what humans have always done as biological beings: mate. Your bloodline is the strongest essence of "you" that gets carried on.

mr dave · 10-15-2010, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

Nah, I understand that it's strictly a personal perspective issue. Interesting one too.
My perspective is that there isn't a metaphysical element to our consciousness as individuals at all, and that the sense of being unique in our self awareness and transcendent above something as petty as meat and bones is just a function of some intricate mosaic of our intelligence and emotion that we don't fully understand. Given that, it's hard for me to imagine how transporting someone's consciousness into another entity would work. My stance on transhumanism in that regard is pretty much a logical default.
I'm ok with that too.

that's fair, i agree with your disbelief of a metaphysical element to our consciousness as well, to me it's all ego. the metaphysical element applies itself to our subconscious.

then again i also believe that just as we as individuals have a consciousness and subconsciousness i think there's a metaphysical equivalent for the entirety of our species. we're just still so immature on that level that we haven't even learned how to truly communicate amongst ourselves in a cohesive language yet.

duga · 10-15-2010, 10:31 AM

We very well may all be just meat and bones, but life finds a way to continue no matter what. Scientists are always quick to point out how much of a cosmic fluke it was that we developed the intelligence that we did...let alone the fact that multicellular organisms evolved in the first place. The chances are astronomically low. Even so, new life has emerged several times over on this planet alone. Most species, when put under pressure, are still able to conveniently mutate that advantage they need to survive. The point of me saying all this is that it is hard to look at the way life strives to continue and not feel as if there is something behind it all, pushing it forward. Maybe it doesn't mean we all have a unique soul, but I definitely feel as if it points towards evidence of some kind of human "essence".

Freebase Dali · 10-15-2010, 02:56 PM

^ Humans don't strive anywhere nearly as hard as other animals do to survive. We're just sitting on top the food chain, so it's inevitable that we'll spread and continue. But we're not without an instinct for survival, just like everything else. I don't think that's a human trait at all... We just have an emotional and intellectual context to ours. If anything, that's the only separation between our will to survive and any other species.

The other stuff you said raises an interesting question in my mind... In one hand, there is the belief that we [all life] are pretty much an accident... a result of perfect conditions (which is what I subscribe to) and in the other there is the belief that our conditions are too finely tuned to have been an accident. The question I have is are we really looking at this from the correct perspective?

Down here on earth is a pretty biased place to be making assumptions about the scope of what's probable. Considering the countless numbers of other planets out in the universe that we can only estimate, it would be unreasonable for life to not have sprung up somewhere. For all we know, there could be another planet out there with the exact same conditions. There SHOULD be, if chance has anything to do with it.

So what makes us so special?
I think what makes us [humans] special is we're intelligent enough to know that we're unique on our planet, but too emotional and egotistical to accept that it has nothing to do with us.

Paedantic Basterd · 10-15-2010, 03:08 PM

Maybe belief itself is an adaptation for survival, to counteract our intelligence. If we're smart enough to realize that our existence is ultimately a meaningless accident, and emotional enough to be deeply disturbed by the fact that in all our individuality, we're only here to live, procreate, and die, then perhaps belief itself is a function that serves to keep humans from self destructing.

/shrug

duga · 10-15-2010, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

^ Humans don't strive anywhere nearly as hard as other animals do to survive. We're just sitting on top the food chain, so it's inevitable that we'll spread and continue. But we're not without an instinct for survival, just like everything else. I don't think that's a human trait at all... We just have an emotional and intellectual context to ours. If anything, that's the only separation between our will to survive and any other species.

The other stuff you said raises an interesting question in my mind... In one hand, there is the belief that we [all life] are pretty much an accident... a result of perfect conditions (which is what I subscribe to) and in the other there is the belief that our conditions are too finely tuned to have been an accident. The question I have is are we really looking at this from the correct perspective?

Down here on earth is a pretty biased place to be making assumptions about the scope of what's probable. Considering the countless numbers of other planets out in the universe that we can only estimate, it would be unreasonable for life to not have sprung up somewhere. For all we know, there could be another planet out there with the exact same conditions. There SHOULD be, if chance has anything to do with it.

So what makes us so special?
I think what makes us [humans] special is we're intelligent enough to know that we're unique on our planet, but too emotional and egotistical to accept that it has nothing to do with us.

I don't think I gave humans any more credit than any other species. I was talking about life in general...humans being one outcome. And the view that things are way too finely tuned to be a coincidence isn't quite what I meant. I believe we are happy accidents as well...what I am saying is life cycles through a lot of possibilities for survival until something works. The chances of finding that correct possibility (because of the incredibly specific nature of our genomes) is very low...which is why I feel as if there is a bigger, "driving force" (not necessarily god...I don't like my beliefs to get that specific) behind everything.

I don't feel as if we are special at all. We are just experiencers of the universe. I also believe in life on other planets. With the current scientific view, the chances of life having successfully evolved on those planets is low. I'm saying the "driving force" applies there as well. If we take that into account, any place that has the potential for life will have life for this reason.

Freebase Dali · 10-15-2010, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Maybe belief itself is an adaptation for survival, to counteract our intelligence. If we're smart enough to realize that our existence is ultimately a meaningless accident, and emotional enough to be deeply disturbed by the fact that in all our individuality, we're only here to live, procreate, and die, then perhaps belief itself is a function that serves to keep humans from self destructing.

/shrug

If that's the case, we are the most ironic species ever.

Freebase Dali · 10-15-2010, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

I don't think I gave humans any more credit than any other species. I was talking about life in general...humans being one outcome. And the view that things are way too finely tuned to be a coincidence isn't quite what I meant. I believe we are happy accidents as well...what I am saying is life cycles through a lot of possibilities for survival until something works. The chances of finding that correct possibility (because of the incredibly specific nature of our genomes) is very low...which is why I feel as if there is a bigger, "driving force" (not necessarily god...I don't like my beliefs to get that specific) behind everything.

I don't feel as if we are special at all. We are just experiencers of the universe. I also believe in life on other planets. With the current scientific view, the chances of life having successfully evolved on those planets is low. I'm saying the "driving force" applies there as well. If we take that into account, any place that has the potential for life will have life for this reason.

Understood.

I just have a hard time imagining what this driving force would be in the terms you're speaking. I don't really subscribe to the view that because something improbable happens, there is something behind it. To me, all there is, is time. If you have enough of it, the only option is a winning combination.

duga · 10-15-2010, 03:45 PM

Well, I can't really imagine what it would be either, which is why I just called it a driving force and not something more specific. I've just been jaded to the world of science and seeing how something can screw up by one tiny mistake in the genetic code, I am constantly amazed anything survives at all. It's the whole "life finds a way" thing. Though you make a very good point about time.

Basically, what I firmly believe is life boils down to two things. Change is constant and so is the universe. As long as those things remain, even if another singularity occurs, life will always happen. The human species will most definitely end...even if it is millions of years from now. Life won't, however.

I keep wanting to add "given enough time" to everything now. Maybe time is the driving force.

10-15-2010, 10:31 AM	#14 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	We very well may all be just meat and bones, but life finds a way to continue no matter what. Scientists are always quick to point out how much of a cosmic fluke it was that we developed the intelligence that we did...let alone the fact that multicellular organisms evolved in the first place. The chances are astronomically low. Even so, new life has emerged several times over on this planet alone. Most species, when put under pressure, are still able to conveniently mutate that advantage they need to survive. The point of me saying all this is that it is hard to look at the way life strives to continue and not feel as if there is something behind it all, pushing it forward. Maybe it doesn't mean we all have a unique soul, but I definitely feel as if it points towards evidence of some kind of human "essence". __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

10-15-2010, 03:45 PM	#20 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	Well, I can't really imagine what it would be either, which is why I just called it a driving force and not something more specific. I've just been jaded to the world of science and seeing how something can screw up by one tiny mistake in the genetic code, I am constantly amazed anything survives at all. It's the whole "life finds a way" thing. Though you make a very good point about time. Basically, what I firmly believe is life boils down to two things. Change is constant and so is the universe. As long as those things remain, even if another singularity occurs, life will always happen. The human species will most definitely end...even if it is millions of years from now. Life won't, however. I keep wanting to add "given enough time" to everything now. Maybe time is the driving force. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

10-15-2010, 12:21 AM	#12 (permalink)
~~someonecompletelyrandom~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,538	I've thought the same thing as you Freebase and Janzsoon. Often when people bring up cloning as a means of living forever I bring out that line of reasoning. Personally, I think if you wanted to go that route to preserve your being, you might as well do what humans have always done as biological beings: mate. Your bloodline is the strongest essence of "you" that gets carried on.

10-15-2010, 02:56 PM	#15 (permalink)
Freebase Dali Partying on the inside Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,584	^ Humans don't strive anywhere nearly as hard as other animals do to survive. We're just sitting on top the food chain, so it's inevitable that we'll spread and continue. But we're not without an instinct for survival, just like everything else. I don't think that's a human trait at all... We just have an emotional and intellectual context to ours. If anything, that's the only separation between our will to survive and any other species. The other stuff you said raises an interesting question in my mind... In one hand, there is the belief that we [all life] are pretty much an accident... a result of perfect conditions (which is what I subscribe to) and in the other there is the belief that our conditions are too finely tuned to have been an accident. The question I have is are we really looking at this from the correct perspective? Down here on earth is a pretty biased place to be making assumptions about the scope of what's probable. Considering the countless numbers of other planets out in the universe that we can only estimate, it would be unreasonable for life to not have sprung up somewhere. For all we know, there could be another planet out there with the exact same conditions. There SHOULD be, if chance has anything to do with it. So what makes us so special? I think what makes us [humans] special is we're intelligent enough to know that we're unique on our planet, but too emotional and egotistical to accept that it has nothing to do with us.

10-15-2010, 03:08 PM	#16 (permalink)
Paedantic Basterd Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5,184	Maybe belief itself is an adaptation for survival, to counteract our intelligence. If we're smart enough to realize that our existence is ultimately a meaningless accident, and emotional enough to be deeply disturbed by the fact that in all our individuality, we're only here to live, procreate, and die, then perhaps belief itself is a function that serves to keep humans from self destructing. /shrug