Ancient Astronauts

Guybrush · 06-09-2010, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Yeah I saw a similar program before deciding to make this thread. It focuesed a lot on how precise all the anicient monuments were, for example how the Great Pyramid has an average error of about 2mm and is directly aligned with the Summer and Winter solstice (or something to do with Summer and Winter anyway).

I would be a bit sceptical to such facts and how they are interpreted. At such minute details, it would seem likely that any change in the earth's axis would be important and 4-5000 years ago when the pyramid was built, the axis wasn't the exact same as it is today. That could give bias either way, making the pyramid's construction look either more correct (correcting a slight mistake) or less (worsening an error). What about erosion and the pyramid sinking into the sand? This must also have taken place during it's 4-5000 years lifetime.

Also important is that in such programs, they usually interview some kind of experts. These people are typically presented as authorities on whatever their field is, but often they are not completely worthy of that title. Instead, I think they are often chosen because their work is interesting and/or fits the program rather than because their assumptions and hypotheses are so "good". I don't know what the 2 millimetres are, but how on earth do you even get to that number? To me, it sounds a bit too much like a misuse of statistics .. or like a number the producers wanted to include in the program because it so strongly illustrates either the egyptians prowess at pyramid building or the impossibility that they could have done it. If you start thinking about stuff like axis changing, erosion and pyramids sinking, then the possibility of a number like 2 millimetres of anything should seem less and less likely.

Dom · 06-09-2010, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I would be a bit sceptical to such facts and how they are interpreted. At such minute details, it would seem likely that any change in the earth's axis would be important and 4-5000 years ago when the pyramid was built, the axis wasn't the exact same as it is today. That could give bias either way, making the pyramid's construction look either more correct (correcting a slight mistake) or less (worsening an error). What about erosion and the pyramid sinking into the sand? This must also have taken place during it's 4-5000 years lifetime.

Also important is that in such programs, they usually interview some kind of experts. These people are typically presented as authorities on whatever their field is, but often they are not completely worthy of that title. Instead, I think they are often chosen because their work is interesting and/or fits the program rather than because their assumptions and hypotheses are so "good". I don't know what the 2 millimetres are, but how on earth do you even get to that number? To me, it sounds a bit too much like a misuse of statistics .. or like a number the producers wanted to include in the program because it so strongly illustrates either the egyptians prowess at pyramid building or the impossibility that they could have done it. If you start thinking about stuff like axis changing, erosion and pyramids sinking, then the possibility of a number like 2 millimetres of anything should seem less and less likely.

On the program they said that taking everything into account the pyramid aligned with those things at the time. They don't algin now. But yes I see where you're coming from. And I think the 2mm accuracy came from calculations of what the perfect pyramid would have looked like, as in geometrically perfect, but I'm not sure. It was an interesting program and it was good that it showed both sides of the argument.

P A N · 06-09-2010, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Well, yes - if you accept that there will be no constraints on what science can do, then your assumption should be valid. If you believe there are limits to what can be achieved, for example faster than light travel, then you have a constraint. If you believe creating a wormholes is practically impossible because it requires just about all the energy in the known universe to create one, then you have another constraint. If you take a picture of a quasar, that picture can show a galaxy which is actually billions of years old. You can almost see the start of our universe up there, that's how relatively slow information travels when distances becomes enormous - yet another constraint.

Based on your assumption, it sounds like we should've been visited by a whole bunch of extraterrestrial species already, but where are they? If we visited a different planet that had primitive intelligent life on it and a wealth of other organisms and resources, do you think we would've just left? I don't think so, I think we would've tried to use those resources for ourselves or, from a more positive perspective, at least nurture those resources. If these aliens visited planet earth, they left no proof behind that we've found like f.ex alien technology. They are not trying to stop us destroying our oasis in space either.

If you say we must have been visited by aliens, you should also come up with some answers to such questions.

firstly, i'd like to say that although i am indeed no scientist at all, i think it's highly likely that the physical world we seek to describe with the verse of science is much less visible that what the tools of the future will permit us to see. so for the most part, yes, i believe there are nearly zero constraints.

that being said, and to counter your statement concerning the will of aliens to stay or go, i should think they have the tools i speak of, and look at us and see that we are not yet ready to hold them. perhaps a moral binding is held dear and the interruption of Earth is simply non-permissible.

regarding wormholes, i do not really believe anything about them. i believe all the possibilities though, in that i have never had my own wormhole to observe. and besides, if wormholes do in fact exist, and they do in fact require just about all the energy in the known universe to be created, wouldn't i just [I]not[I] be here to speculate?

regarding the speed at which information travels through space and time: you are quite right in saying that we can see the light from many millions of years ago. i must admit that i don't see the relevancy of it. if you are referring to my words about "the exponential growth rate" of information, that's something entirely different, referring only to what can be easily observed here on planet earth, which is the quantity of data we have access to, essentially.

and lastly, regarding physical artifacts left by extra-terrestrials: you should really do some research. i'm not gonna sit here and be the guy who preaches about the things he's seen. but i will say that if you look real hard, you will find something really eye-opening. you might even, if you look hard enough, find official evidence in the form of government documents.

Guybrush · 06-09-2010, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zevokes

regarding the speed at which information travels through space and time: you are quite right in saying that we can see the light from many millions of years ago. i must admit that i don't see the relevancy of it. if you are referring to my words about "the exponential growth rate" of information, that's something entirely different, referring only to what can be easily observed here on planet earth, which is the quantity of data we have access to, essentially.

and lastly, regarding physical artifacts left by extra-terrestrials: you should really do some research. i'm not gonna sit here and be the guy who preaches about the things he's seen. but i will say that if you look real hard, you will find something really eye-opening. you might even, if you look hard enough, find official evidence in the form of government documents.

The slowness of information is relevant in that while I agree that there must be intelligent life out there, there's little reason they should know about us at all. By the time the light from our planet reaches them, thousands or even millions of years could have passed. Even if they somehow see earth, they won't see earth as it is in real time and so they still might not know we're here.

"Official government documents", wheverever they are produced and by whom, is still not evidence. It's not exactly an abandoned mega structure, ruins of an alien settlement or an artifact like a ray gun. In fact, it's something man-made which is bound to be more or less fiction. However, if you have any such documents lying around, send'em over and I'll take a look.

jackhammer · 06-09-2010, 05:14 PM

Just read Chariots Of The Gods, that's where all this stems from. interesting read but lot's of holes to say the least.

As for light speed travel, it's the general consensus that absolutely nothing can travel faster than this and it seems to be the universal speed limit if you will. Something man made may one day be able to get to 99.9% of it but never over it. However if we COULD reach that speed then time travel is perfectly plausible but I am digressing. Apologies.

Dom · 06-09-2010, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackhammer

Just read Chariots Of The Gods, that's where all this stems from. interesting read but lot's of holes to say the least.

As for light speed travel, it's the general consensus that absolutely nothing can travel faster than this and it seems to be the universal speed limit if you will. Something man made may one day be able to get to 99.9% of it but never over it. However if we COULD reach that speed then time travel is perfectly plausible but I am digressing. Apologies.

I wouldn't say it's a general consensus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_than_light_travel

I've heard of Chariots of the Gods but never read it, I might try and find it.

jackhammer · 06-09-2010, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

It's certainly not a general consensus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_than_light_travel

I would rather trust one of the most brilliant minds on the planet (Stephen Hawkings) than Wiki when it comes to this subject and until it is PROVED otherwise, his word works for me

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mosl...e-machine.html

Neapolitan · 06-09-2010, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Yeah I saw a similar program before deciding to make this thread. It focuesed a lot on how precise all the anicient monuments were, for example how the Great Pyramid has an average error of about 2mm and is directly aligned with the Summer and Winter solstice (or something to do with Summer and Winter anyway).

As far as accuracy, you can do amazing things with strings, like make a plum.

Eerily enough the Great Pyramids of Giza are supposed to match the belt of Orion. Both the the way they layed out, as they appear from an aerial veiw and the hieght of each of the three pyramids correspond to the magnitude of each of the stars. I don't know if the GPG aligned with the solstice (they might) I know both the Myan pyramids of South America and Hengestone in England do align with the solstices. The is also the Great White Pyramid in China, but that hardly, if ever gets mentioned.

Dom · 06-10-2010, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackhammer

I would rather trust one of the most brilliant minds on the planet (Stephen Hawkings) than Wiki when it comes to this subject and until it is PROVED otherwise, his word works for me

STEPHEN HAWKING: How to build a time machine | Mail Online

That is a very interesting article, and I suppose you're right:

Quote:

There's a cosmic speed limit, 186,000 miles per second, also known as the speed of light. Nothing can exceed that speed. It's one of the best established principles in science.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

As far as accuracy, you can do amazing things with strings, like make a plum.

Eerily enough the Great Pyramids of Giza are supposed to match the belt of Orion. Both the the way they layed out, as they appear from an aerial veiw and the hieght of each of the three pyramids correspond to the magnitude of each of the stars. I don't know if the GPG aligned with the solstice (they might) I know both the Myan pyramids of South America and Hengestone in England do align with the solstices. The is also the Great White Pyramid in China, but that hardly, if ever gets mentioned.

I wasn't sure about the solstice, but I knew it aligned with certain things. I was probably thinking of Stonehenge.

P A N · 06-11-2010, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

The slowness of information is relevant in that while I agree that there must be intelligent life out there, there's little reason they should know about us at all. By the time the light from our planet reaches them, thousands or even millions of years could have passed. Even if they somehow see earth, they won't see earth as it is in real time and so they still might not know we're here.

"Official government documents", wheverever they are produced and by whom, is still not evidence. It's not exactly an abandoned mega structure, ruins of an alien settlement or an artifact like a ray gun. In fact, it's something man-made which is bound to be more or less fiction. However, if you have any such documents lying around, send'em over and I'll take a look.

for someone who seems to think knowing anything about this topic is impossible other than blatant assumptions fitting categorically into popular belief, you sure do seem sure of yourself.

and no, i don't have documents lying around. it's the internet. if i kept everything i found, i would have many hard drives full, and no time to do anything but categorize it all. like i say, if it piques your interest, don't wait for someone to show you. go find it.

06-09-2010, 05:14 PM	#45 (permalink)
jackhammer Ba and Be. Join Date: May 2007 Location: This Is England Posts: 17,331	Just read Chariots Of The Gods, that's where all this stems from. interesting read but lot's of holes to say the least. As for light speed travel, it's the general consensus that absolutely nothing can travel faster than this and it seems to be the universal speed limit if you will. Something man made may one day be able to get to 99.9% of it but never over it. However if we COULD reach that speed then time travel is perfectly plausible but I am digressing. Apologies. __________________ It be my music and film collection. “A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.”