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(Lack of) Human Evolution.
It seems to me that humans just don't evolve physically anymore (mentally maybe, possibly even "devolving" mentally at this point). I have a feeling if you were to hop in your time machine (you can borrow mine if you don't have your own) and travel 40,000 years into the past, you would encounter beings physically identical or nearly so.
So is our understanding of evolution completely off? Or is it that we have no need to evolve anymore? If the latter is true, what might bring us to the point that evolution is once again necessary? It's an interesting thought and I just wanted to see what the great mind at MB (all three of them) have to say about it. |
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What is evolution? What is it you think drives evolution? Who do well in evolution and who get weeded out and why? Some kind of answers to those questions will solve much of the mystery. ;) |
I don't claim to be an expert, but I'm pretty sure I understand natural selection. Is the reason that people haven't changed genetically because we have no need to?; because we have been the heirarchy species for a long time and "survival of the fittest" is no longer applicable? Or am I once again off?
I don't mean to avoid your questions, tore, but I honestly don't know how to answer them without sounding like an idiot or a ****. |
Out of curiosity, how fast do you think evolution actually happens?
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Well, defining evolution is a bit hard but it's obviously an important thing to do if you want to say whether it happens or not. A lot of ecologists for example might say that evolution is a change in allele frequencies from one generation to the next. For humans, this happens for every new generation so then it's a question of how much. I understand however that you think that humans are not changing as quickly physically as we used to and then I guess you would have to compare. Do you know if we have evolved slower physically the last 100 000 years than we did the 100 000 years before that? You are also focusing on morphological and mental traits, but what about all those genes that you can't really tell that easily?
Evolution is a process of cause and consequence where those who are fittest - those who pass on their genes the most - add more to the human genetic makeup for the future and those who don't pass on their genes, well .. they don't! There are many ways to be fit, but to put it into some kind of perspective, I can make a simple example : Imagine that there's a plague which kills people, for example cholera. The chances of dying from cholera is quite high, but if you have a specific genetic mutation, your chances of survival are much higher. The reason is the mutation causes a slight change in some ion pumps in your stomach cells which normally just renders these stomach cells less effective and people who have this mutation have more irritable bowels. However, when they are infected with cholera, the same mutation protects them somewhat from the harmful effects of the cholera bacteria which also have an effect on the operation of these ion pumps. Before cholera occurs, most people don't have the mutation because having it has a slight negative effect on fitness. Diarreah doesn't make people pass on their genes more successfully after all .. But after cholera has occurred, people who had this mutation were much more likely to survive and then the mutation did add to their fitness and did make it much more likely for them to pass on their genes. The occurrence of the mutation after cholera has taken place in the human population is much higher than it was before. The genetics of the human population have changed somewhat and now they are more cholera resistant on the whole than they used to be - there's been some evolution taking place. Because the mutation is not beneficial in a cholera free environment, the frequency of that mutation might change again in the future until it's as rare as it was before the first cholera plague. The example should be reasonably simple to understand. For a while, there's one selection pressure (cholera) which favours one trait (a mutation). When that pressure is gone, the trait is not favoured anymore. The point is that evolution of specific traits and most likely the sort of changes you are talking about happens as a response to selective pressure. What the pressure is and how strong it is varies with where you are in the world, what your situation is. Different genetic makeups do well in different environments, for different sexual preferences, diseases and so on. Evolution is just a consequence of natural selection. It doesn't stop when it's reached some sort of goal! |
evolution is a constant process, it doesn't just shut on and off.
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But isn't it possible that if a species reaches some sort of harmony with their environment and the environment itself doesn't undergo any major changes, that mutations aren't necessary, nor beneficial? That seems to be where we're at right now. Also, for the first time, a species is able to create things to meet our needs rather than having to physically adapt to them. For example, instead of fur to keep us warm, we make clothes. Instead of having to actually physically catch our food, we can grow our food or use weapons to kill other animals. Am I making any sense or am I just making an ass of myself?
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Though if anyone has anything to add, feel free to do so. |
One thing I find very interesting is that our self awareness evolved from a time when we did strike a harmonious balance with the environment. Food was plentiful and there were no major environmental stresses. This gave us the opportunity to relax in a way and "ponder existence". This lead to self awareness as we know it.
This sort of thing couldn't be expanded on today because of the intense amount of stress that is placed on all of us with jobs, money, and personal issues. However, if we were to find that harmony again, imagine what we could do with our minds at that point. |
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don't expect dramatic change so fast. 40K years is nothing at all on an evolutionary timescale. but also remember that we humans have a tendency to resist change by adapting our environment to suit us, rather than vice versa. individuals born with sub-optimal traits are nursed and cared for rather than being left to die. disease rarely takes its toll on the week. etc etc. we've kind of put a wrench in the gears of the system. but no matter, wait till a global disaster comes around and then see who's strong enough to survive in the post-apocalyptic world. it will take a lot more than ruthless inefficiency and a fat wallet :) |
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"Random" mating - which means mates are chosen at random. You don't choose a mate based on favourable characteristics that make them attractive (assortative mating) and you don't do inbreeding. Infinite population size (no genetic drift) - Basically, it has to be infinitely huge because then stochastic effects like rock slides killing off some germans here f.ex won't have much impact on the common human genome. No natural selection - Nothing in the social, biotic, abiotic, whatever environment that makes one trait more favourable than another. No gene flow - No input of alleles from different populations that may disturb the equilibrium. No mutations - Mutations will create new alleles and if these increase in the population, that violates the HW equilibrium criteria. In a population that satisfy all these criteria, the new generation should have the same genes (alleles) in the same proportions as their parent generation. This means that although the population may create different individuals, the genome as a whole doesn't change much - it contains the same varieties of genes at the same frequencies. As I wrote, this is not attainable. For example mutations do happen whether we like it or not and we do have sexual preferences. There are also a range of selection pressures, but they vary very much with where you are. Some places in the world, malaria can f.ex be a real selection pressure which favours some mutations. Where I am, it is not. Whether or not there is gene flow is a question of definition because you then have to define the human population or populations that gene flow can occur between, so that's relative. Also, depending on how you see it, you could argue that the human population size is huge ;) So sometimes, large populations of organisms may "approach" what looks like a HW equilibrium. Depending on how you define a human population - f.ex if you only look at Norway or some other western country, you could probably find that we do as well. However, it's never quite attainable and at any rate, it's only temporary. Some stronger selection pressures are bound to come along soon enough. edit : Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease In other words, which mutations are beneficial or not may simply depend on the environment you're in and environments change over time. |
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^That (duga's post) is indeed a statement and I think you should always be a bit careful when making statements. At least ask yourself "how do I know this is true?"!
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haha thanks a lot tore, you just rendered my entire discipline (anthropology) useless with one little post :D
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Sexual selection has come to play a greater part, at the expense of natural selection. That's really the only difference.
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Edit: Just to expand a little bit, this theory is supported by fossil records. Without getting too technical, archeologists have found higher frequencies of hominid fossils in areas known to have been incredibly fertile and mild in climate at certain points in history. This means for a time those hominids were able to halt their nomadic nature and live off the fruits of the land. Does this prove that the result is self awareness? No, but what advantage does self awareness provide when it comes to basic survival? Not a whole lot. One of the only ways it would have come about is with the scenario I just described. |
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Cheetas are lean mean hunting machines, they evolve to run fast, and take out their prey, on the other hand human don't have to evolve for speed they can just create say a bow and arrow right to hunt and kill, right? That would deminish the need to evolve into a fast running species or some subspecies of super fast humans who can chase after prey, while the rest of the species would live a more sedentary lifestyle as like being hunter/gathers or into some kind of husbandry. Some scientist once siad that the human race could not survive as a species if it wasn't for their intellect. He point out that humans aren't the fastest, or the strongest, and without the domiciles they know how to build, and the clothes they know how to make, the human species would not be suitable to live all over the world like they actually do. So in short it's human's intelligence that stops us as humans from evolving. |
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There's little basis for saying sexual selection plays a greater part now. At least I think so! If other selection pressures are higher, say food is sparse and there are more diseases (not saying that would be the case some tens of thousands of years ago, but), then finding a partner who is healthy and able could be arguably even more important. Sexual selection is generally thought to have been extremely important in our evolutionary history. Some use it to explain why we are as kind and social as we are. The sex who has the most parental investment, the females, get to be choosy with the kind of males they want to have sex with. F.ex if you're gonna be pregnant for 9 months and then raise a baby after, you'd want a man who's loyal to you, kind and helps raise the child. Still, if it wasn't for this sexual pressure on men, it should make more sense from a selfish point of view to cheat as much as possible because as a man, you can potentually have children with very little investment. The investment is potentially as little as the sperm load you ejaculate and the energy spent courting and having sex. So, some biologists believe a lot of our social aspects have evolved from sexual selection pressures on men from women. Some even hypothesize that women's gossiping is a way to exchange information about the quality of potential partners. "Have you heard? Lisa is so upset. She had an argument with Ben and he hit her!" Needless to say, a statement that says sexual selection is more important now than before (when before?) is just a statement which is vague, non-specific and currently without support. Quote:
Basically, we switched to a source of nutrition which allowed our brains to grow big and we had our hands free and we also got a lot of free time on our hands. When you don't have to spend all day getting food, you can spend it developing culture. The people you talk about who lived in locations of plenty, I'm not sure what species of man you're talking about, but if they had a culture (could switch off being nomadic and choose to settle), then I'm thinking they were probably already self-aware and had been for a long time. Even Coco was self-aware! http://www.buckswoodside.com/archives/images/koko2.jpg Quote:
A quick comment still, you think we don't have to evolve in the same "arms race" as the fish we eat and the chickens we kill. This is true, we don't. But how about the viruses, bacteria and range of parasites that still infect us on a daily basis? We're talking here about organisms and evolutionary particles which have a very short generation time which means they evolve incredibly fast in this arms race against us. We don't stop evolving. You seem to think it's something animals do because they "need" to. They don't, it's a consequence. I keep saying it is, but I'm not sure people get what it entails. Basically, it's not something we choose to do. It's not something we can turn off. Evolution will continue to happen as a consequence unless we can turn off the causes. If life as it is was constant and could not vary, not even mutate, from generation to generation, then there would be no evolution. However, hereditary variability is an integral capacity of life as it is and evolution comes with it. It can be slow, it can be fast, but the main point is it's happening. |
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From my understanding I don't think we are evolving at anywhere near the pace of other animals due to the fact that we change our surroundings to suit us, rather than changing to suit our surroundings. Natural selection happens as the ones with the more advantageous mutations are more likely to survive and therefore breed, passing their genes on. With humans, there are all kinds of things we've made to make mutations to survive unnecessary; e.g. in other animals, a creature with a genetic condition would likely die before it passes the genes on, so the conditon slowly dies out. In humans, medical care allows people with these conditions to survive and pass their "bad" genes on (I'm not saying we should kill everyone with genetic conditions, don't get me wrong). |
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The reason I mention Koko is that it shows self-awareness should have evolved long before we got up on two legs and created nomadic (or not) cultures. Quote:
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I also still can't see why it can't be a combination of the two. The freeing of our hands, a meat diet, and bountiful environment all combining to support the development of self awareness. At the very least, fossil records support that at some point a group of hominid ancestors ceased their nomadic activities and settled for a time, which would only have happened if the environment supported such an action. |
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I'm not saying that self-awareness comes from a change in diet and ecology, although I see how it may have seen like it. I believe self-awareness, in essence passing a mirror test, was something we could do before our change in diet. Quote:
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What I'm thinking is that you got smarts and self-awareness mixed up. Certainly there were things in our evolutionary history which had to do with food availability that probably made us smarter. What I'm arguing is that self-awareness most likely happened before that. If you were talking about an increase in general smarts and adaptability, I would've been on the same page as you. |
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Take the beaver for instance, it acts like it's acting as if it knows what it is doing exactly when building a damn as if it were a human engineer. But it that the case? Does a beaver have a self-actualization that it is a dam-builder and goes about it's day with a steadfast determination of realizing it's dam-building potential and endeavors to accomplish it's goal of building a dam or is it just plain instinct? When someone accidently step on a dog, because it is stealthily lieing somewhere on the floor where it can not see it, and it yeps - is this proof of self-awareness? Or it is just a reflex? Grant it, there are animals are animals that are highly intelligent, and even as we speak in Japan they are building humanoid computer robots that imitate human intelligence. But do animals and humanoid computer robots have the same exact self-awareness as humans beings do? Or is it instinct and nifty computer programming? |
^What you're doing is trying to turn this into some meta-discussion on what self-awareness is. That's all well and good, perhaps there are different ways one could define what self-awareness is.
For me in this thread, it's pretty straightforward. In biology, if we talk about self-awareness in animals, we need to make sure we're talking about the same thing and the solution is this standard mirror test. Although there are some variations of this test, it's pretty much standard in that it has the ability to recognize oneself in the mirror as the criteria for passing. Koko is one of several gorillas to pass such a test. It's also been passed by dolphins, a magpie and other apes. When we talk about self-awareness and I mention this test, then I am using a definition of self-awareness as whatever it is that makes you pass this test. If you want to talk about self-awareness as something other than that, then chances are we're still talking, but no longer about the same thing and the discussion will suffer from misinformation and talking past eachother as a result. Saying something about when humans became self-aware becomes entirely pointless without a solid reference point as to what self-awareness means, so then we might as well kiss the discussion goodbye. ;) |
I still stand by the belief that self awareness requires some sort of lax survival needs to develop (though I'll concede that how it actually happened is more ambiguous than I previously felt...thanks Tore), but my god every single discussion with Neapolitan degenerates into this kind of crap. He obviously loses the argument and then starts to pick out tiny bits he might still possibly be able to defend, however poorly.
Neapolitan, do you really believe the things you say or feel they form a cogent argument or do you just like to type and this is the easiest way to do it? I really am curious... |
Falling back to discussing definitions or other meta arguments is really a kind of cop out the way I see it. It's usually employed when people are not able or willing to partake in the discussion on the level it's at, so they take a step back and formulate meta questions instead. It doesn't take much knowledge to say "but how?" or "how do we define this?" or even stuff like "how do we know anything is real?", so it's kinda cheap, I think. ;)
Sometimes such posts shed light on important problems and solutions that are found on higher levels, but mostly not .. at least not when discussing on forums. |
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Btw, tore, what is it you study? I'm a plant biologist myself. |
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So, no real work experience as a biologist yet :) At least not one which pays. |
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Well, anyway the more import question I asked but overlooked was . Like hypothectically speaking maybe a thousands of years maybe of millions years from now, will the Human species be considered a living fossil species like the Ginko biloba or the Coelacanth? |
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The mistake you're making is thinking the idea of the mirror test assumes the animal somehow has the same concept of self-realization as we developed humans do, when it most certainly does not. The very basis of the mirror test is to ascertain whether an animal (or human child, which have also been subjects in the mirror test experiment) can use visual or environmental cues to demonstrate a basic sense of self and individuality... or, SELF AWARENESS. Awareness of one's self, as being independent of any others. Passing this test indicates that the subject already realizes itself as an individual, and recognizes that fact due to being able to distinguish between the mirror image of itself and the actual physical self. Where one animal may see a mirror image of itself and attack it, thinking it's another animal (which happens), others may recognize that the image in the mirror is their own self and notice discrepancies that may have been placed on the subject for the test, and correct those discrepancies as any other self-aware being would. (which happens). I think that's a clear example of the difference between animal survival awareness and an individualistic sense of being. While no one is claiming that animals ponder the existence of god or why they're put on this earth or have an awareness of personality, the idea of self awareness in animals is not a new phenomenon and is demonstrated in its true form whether you want to believe it or not. |
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