(Lack of) Human Evolution.

Freebase Dali · 06-03-2010, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

I think there is a big difference of me getting entangle in a discussion, I really don't want to discuss the self-awareness of Koko, it just seems quite odd you would except it so unqestionablely where other scientist don't. Quite honestly if your enamoured with the mirror test and I am skeptical of the mirror test there is no reason to say that I am turning it into a meta-discussion. We just disagree, and whether it is or not a meta-discussion I don't know, but all I know is that the consciousness of human beings is different than the consciousness of animals, and many in the scientific community will notice that as well, too. And basically I think that can be part of the discussion of whether or not humans will continue to evolve or not, because one has to look back at the past and see where humans came from and examine what seperates us from then and now to understand where the human race is headed. Will the future of the human race include a further evolution of the mind along with the possible hypothetical mutations in its genetic code in the evolutionary trajectory of the human race to the point it will turn into another species?

Well, anyway the more import question I asked but overlooked was . Like hypothectically speaking maybe a thousands of years maybe of millions years from now, will the Human species be considered a living fossil species like the Ginko biloba or the Coelacanth?

I don't mean to butt in and derail the flow or anything, but self-awareness, in context with what Tore is talking about (I.E. the ability to recognize one's self as an individual at least to the extent of differentiating between another animal and one's self via observable characteristic relationships) is most certainly provable with the mirror test.
The mistake you're making is thinking the idea of the mirror test assumes the animal somehow has the same concept of self-realization as we developed humans do, when it most certainly does not.
The very basis of the mirror test is to ascertain whether an animal (or human child, which have also been subjects in the mirror test experiment) can use visual or environmental cues to demonstrate a basic sense of self and individuality... or, SELF AWARENESS. Awareness of one's self, as being independent of any others.
Passing this test indicates that the subject already realizes itself as an individual, and recognizes that fact due to being able to distinguish between the mirror image of itself and the actual physical self.
Where one animal may see a mirror image of itself and attack it, thinking it's another animal (which happens), others may recognize that the image in the mirror is their own self and notice discrepancies that may have been placed on the subject for the test, and correct those discrepancies as any other self-aware being would. (which happens).

I think that's a clear example of the difference between animal survival awareness and an individualistic sense of being. While no one is claiming that animals ponder the existence of god or why they're put on this earth or have an awareness of personality, the idea of self awareness in animals is not a new phenomenon and is demonstrated in its true form whether you want to believe it or not.

Neapolitan · 06-05-2010, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

I don't mean to butt in and derail the flow or anything, but self-awareness, in context with what Tore is talking about (I.E. the ability to recognize one's self as an individual at least to the extent of differentiating between another animal and one's self via observable characteristic relationships) is most certainly provable with the mirror test.
The mistake you're making is thinking the idea of the mirror test assumes the animal somehow has the same concept of self-realization as we developed humans do, when it most certainly does not.
The very basis of the mirror test is to ascertain whether an animal (or human child, which have also been subjects in the mirror test experiment) can use visual or environmental cues to demonstrate a basic sense of self and individuality... or, SELF AWARENESS. Awareness of one's self, as being independent of any others.
Passing this test indicates that the subject already realizes itself as an individual, and recognizes that fact due to being able to distinguish between the mirror image of itself and the actual physical self.
Where one animal may see a mirror image of itself and attack it, thinking it's another animal (which happens), others may recognize that the image in the mirror is their own self and notice discrepancies that may have been placed on the subject for the test, and correct those discrepancies as any other self-aware being would. (which happens).

I think that's a clear example of the difference between animal survival awareness and an individualistic sense of being. While no one is claiming that animals ponder the existence of god or why they're put on this earth or have an awareness of personality, the idea of self awareness in animals is not a new phenomenon and is demonstrated in its true form whether you want to believe it or not.

That's all well and good but I think you are missing the point. I said I was skeptical of the mirror test. I didn't say the mirror test proves self-realization on par with human being. And besides there are professionals who are also critical of the mirror test also. And it is what they say that has more credence imo than someone just saying mirror test is the bench mark of self-awarenss. What goes through the animals mind with image it sees is not known.

The mirror test alone can not prove anything. It doesn't reveal the thoughts of the animal which can not be known exactly like throuhg ESP or the Vulcan mind meld. Since you can not know what the animal is thinking, and it can not tell you what it is thinking when it sees the mirror, what is observe when it see itself in the mirror is open to interpretation. I am skeptical of the mirror test because the actions of the animal is interpretted by the scientist to mean what he wants it to mean. All it demonstrates is a reaction of the animal. And one should be cautious when connecting the dots. If there is some sense of self for an animal, it would be demostrate in it's bahavior in the natural setting of the animal.

Freebase Dali · 06-05-2010, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

That's all well and good but I think you are missing the point. I said I was skeptical of the mirror test. I didn't say the mirror test proves self-realization on par with human being. And besides there are professionals who are also critical of the mirror test also. And it is what they say that has more credence imo than someone just saying mirror test is the bench mark of self-awarenss. What goes through the animals mind with image it sees is not known.

The mirror test alone can not prove anything. It doesn't reveal the thoughts of the animal which can not be known exactly like throuhg ESP or the Vulcan mind meld. Since you can not know what the animal is thinking, and it can not tell you what it is thinking when it sees the mirror, what is observe when it see itself in the mirror is open to interpretation. I am skeptical of the mirror test because the actions of the animal is interpretted by the scientist to mean what he wants it to mean. All it demonstrates is a reaction of the animal. And one should be cautious when connecting the dots. If there is some sense of self for an animal, it would be demostrate in it's bahavior in the natural setting of the animal.

I don't think the idea behind the test is to provide evidence of what the subject is thinking. The subject, by recognizing the image in the mirror to be itself and not another, clearly demonstrates a basic self-awareness in certain subjects where others fail, and doesn't need to be interpreted. The extent of that awareness would obviously need to be interpreted and could very easily fit the criteria of what you're saying.
I know I'm intentionally being off the mark of the context of this thread as self-awareness applies to it, but I just wanted to point out that the mirror test does indicate a certain level of self-awareness when passed... but I think you're correct in that any ramifications beyond that level of awareness would be speculation when based solely on the mirror test alone.