The 'Big Government' thread: US vs EU, and whether either (or both) are doomed

[mr dave]

actions speak louder than words?

[P A N]

i'm not all about gloom and doom, cuz i think humans will eventually wake up, but the monetary system isn't designed to last, and the stuff about making big changes in economic policy you see on TV are signs alluding to aged and decrepit movements made by a very old system. we've outgrown it, and it's kind of like it's on a feedback loop... but the feedback is debt. the whole world is in debt. so we scramble and try and make this stupid system keep working.... and fail. and try. and fail again. we will eventually wake and see that technology and intelligence can make it such that arbitrary claims of ownership against pieces of the universe are obsolete.

[mr dave]

^i totally agree, but i don't think it will ever happen until we all start speaking the same language across the planet. and not Esperanto

[Ronnie Jane Devo]

Oh wow, replies.

I've got about three minutes available to me right now, but at a glance it seems like a lot of you are misinterpreting my justification for a 'libertarian' federal government. Personally I'm in favor of tax+spend and the social safety net, but there are still a lot of people in the US who aren't, and I think it's fucking up our political process to have both sides bickering over which side gets to have their views imposed upon the entire country. Why not let the States decide individually?

[Ilistentomusic]

These lyrics express pretty well how the vast majority of most Europeans feel about the European Union!

[William_the_Bloody]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Jane Devo

most people continue to view the federal government rather than the state governments as the place where the majority of big decisions (health care, drug law, gun control, abortion, immigration, etc.) should be handled. This seems to me increasingly a bad idea

What I'm curious to know is what role you guys think the political unification of Europe has had in this, if any -- whether the European Union is making '21st-Century governance' more possible for Europe, or whether it may actually be setting up Europe to be 'United States Pt. 2' by centralizing power too much and letting the wealthy elite run amok with the system. There is, after all, a major public debt problem over there, and of course many parts of Europe were hit hard by the recent financial crisis, which seems indicative of a predatory financial industry similar to the one that exists in the US.

The United States is a strong federal union, it was this union that allowed it to become one of the strongest superpowers in the world.

The EU is a currency union, unless its member are willing to concede more power to a German dominated government in Brussels, it is less likely that it will survive. I personally feel that their is a good chance Greece will leave the EU, you can only impose austerity on a nation state for so long. It would be better for them to seperate and spurt economic growth through currency devaluation.

Ironically I feel the United States governing weakness is its decentralization of power. Take the current administration, even though Obama has won the election, his ability to pass legislation is limited because the Repulicans hold the House of Representatives, it would be even worse if they owned the Senate. Any corporate lobbiest reform is sure to get watered down.

In the Parlimentary system of the UK, Canada and Australia there is no such limitations on power, you win a majority and you rule the roost, public outcry and fear of losing the next election becomes your legislative restraint, there is no constant haggling and deal brokering with the opposition.

I hold some sympathy to confederate/regional viewpoints, but unfortuantly too often their policies directly effect their neighbours, or minority groups within a state. Gun control is ineffective unless its federal ban, because semi automatic rifles can easily travel through borderless states.

It was also conferderate power that allowed racist Jim Crow laws to exist a centruy after slavery was abolished, it was strong federalist power that ended it through the Civil Rights Act of 1964, so me, a strong federalist who supports the centralization of power,

[Unknown Soldier]

Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody

The EU is a currency union, unless its member are willing to concede more power to a German dominated government in Brussels, it is less likely that it will survive. I personally feel that their is a good chance Greece will leave the EU, you can only impose austerity on a nation state for so long. It would be better for them to seperate and spurt economic growth through currency devaluation.

The fear if Greece leaves, is who'll be next! At the moment the trapdoor is shut but if Greece fall through the EU can survive, BUT there is still the lingering concern that other much bigger and struggling economies like Italy and Spain could follow Greece and that is the major concern of the EU.

[Face]

When comparing the eu and the states it's important to remember how they came about. Europe as centuries upon centuries of separate cultures, countries and governance, finally unifying somewhat in just drafting up some rules to allow easier trade and some bull**** red tape, while the states has spent the majority of it's time as one country, one identity and most laws going to its supreme court or what have you.

The resistance to things like state healthcare seems to be because some seem think of things on a scale.

<-Freedom and capitalism-----------------------------socialism-communism--facism-->
And that state healthcare in any form is a step towards the evils of socialism, even though europe isn't even socialist.

They simply can't accept that the countries doing best on the HDI and healthcare, quality of life etc all have both state and private healthcare and mixed economies.

But then again, there is a legitimate reason to be against "big" governments in terms of bailouts, overspending etc.

[Franco Pepe Kalle]

I would say that the European Union is falling more than the US although US has a huge debt.

[William_the_Bloody]

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

The fear if Greece leaves, is who'll be next! At the moment the trapdoor is shut but if Greece fall through the EU can survive, BUT there is still the lingering concern that other much bigger and struggling economies like Italy and Spain could follow Greece and that is the major concern of the EU.

I agree, the EU will survive without Greece, but I believe it will have to make moves towards being a cohesive political union if it is going to survive longterm.

If Spain or Italy faulter on their debt payments, you can expect a banking crisis to hit the EU, ecspecially in France.