Dotoar

Competition made the computers the zeitsters are rejecting it with.

The financial part of the first movie is at least partly true though, but there are other, better and more recent documentaries to watch on the subject.

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OccultHawk

It's time to base our thinking on cooperation so we can have even better computers.

Dotoar

That's what has happened during the last 150 years or so.

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P A N

not exactly. technology could have overcome the vast majority of our dependencies on fossil fuel decades ago. it is only competition in the free market which has stymied our victory over archaic methods of growth.

OccultHawk

Yes, because competition doesn't respect fair play and decency. Plus, competition isn't the only form of inspiration.

P A N

competition was not responsible for our computers. the inherent exponential growth rate of information was. in other words, nature did it.

Dotoar

No it couldn't. Governmental subsidies aside, if the alternative energy sources had been sufficient noone in their right mind would persist with producing fossil fuel on a free market.

No it didn't. Competition has forced computer manufacturers (as well as any other manufacturer) to make their production more effective in order to stay within the market. Think about how you today can get a hard drive for the same prize as a hard drive a millionth the size ten years ago for instance.

Regarding the Zeitgeist/Venus Project: Who would develop, produce and maintain all these wonderful machines that would serve the humanity, if they were forced to do it without any reward?

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P A N

to anyone who's been keeping up with this thread, i'm sorry about my repetitious tangents and endless paraphrasing.



when the world goes corporate, 'right minds' cease to exist and profit margins tend to cloud better judgement. the only reason we burn things to create energy is that energy companies - who happen to own the media - can sell it to us until it runs out. and when it runs out, they can capitalize BIG TIME on the riotous outcome. everybody agrees that war makes good wallet padding.

and that aside, the extracting and moving and selling of oil is a fundamental player in the state of the world economy. it's interesting that they both just happen to be in such a state of near-collapse simultaneously. eh?

next.

[/QUOTE]No it didn't. Competition has forced computer manufacturers (as well as any other manufacturer) to make their production more effective in order to stay within the market. Think about how you today can get a hard drive for the same prize as a hard drive a millionth the size ten years ago for instance.[/QUOTE]


the hard drive you buy today probably existed long before you could get your hands on it. probably even before you could get your hands on the one you bought ten years ago.

in this regard, competition again serves to hinder progression in the sense that companies will withhold their product lines in order to ensure the continued existence and prosperity of the company, while maintaining a standard of what is called PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE. planned obsolescence means that when you buy a product, it is guaranteed to break or fail, ensuring you go buy another one or put money into repairing it. the monetary system could not survive without producing goods which will not stand the test of time. let me say that again:

IN A MONETARY SYSTEM, THE WORLD WOULD COLLAPSE IF PRODUCTS WERE MADE WELL.


[/QUOTE]Regarding the Zeitgeist/Venus Project: Who would develop, produce and maintain all these wonderful machines that would serve the humanity, if they were forced to do it without any reward?[/QUOTE]

i don't know what you think are rewards if they don't include free time, a perspective which includes the future, knowing people everywhere are eating and have roofs over their heads and solid floors under their feet and clean water, knowing people are being put to use in a way that is not lining the pockets of the elite, knowing the world in its entirety is not the sum of a few men's agenda, and not ever having to pay a cent for anything ever again, because the system is designed and redesigned with the happiness of us in mind.

Dotoar

It's quite obvious that I might be forced to from here on totally disregard any argument based on the presumtion that there is a worldwide conspiracy or anything that rules the world on its own terms. If there is such an elite, then point at it or at the signs unambiguously proving that there are. Otherwise it's not worth discussing.

When (parts of) the world did (begin to) go corporate, the people therein could for the first time acquire things previously unreachable by exchange of things they could produce themselves, i.e. create more value. I used the term 'right mind' as equal to rational behaviour, nothing more, nothing less. And may I remind you that profit itself is thoroughly dependent on whatever it is you call "better judgement". May I also remind you that war destroys capital. Regarding the conspiratorial notion of the media ownership I refer to what I wrote at the beginning.

Oil is an important commodity only because it's one of the most, if not the most, efficient energy sources and a foundational ingredient in plastic, only to mention two common usages of it. Which 'both' is it that you're claiming to be in a state of near-collapse, by the way?

It probably existed some time ago but I would never in my life have been able to buy it. Now I am. Guess why?

"Planned obsolence"...

The most obvious example of "planned obsolence", albeit a product of politics rather than business strategy, is what occured in places like the Sovjet Union and the eastern Europe. Here you have the results of "planned obsolence":



It doesn't become more true just because you write in capitals. Are you even remotely familiar with basic economic theory?

How about value? Means to exchange value? Incitement to produce value? Satisfaction enough to reach for higher values? Don't you realize that all the things you're mentioning here are all dependent on wealth which is a result of the increase of production of value? (And I do mean value in its widest definition). More people today than ever before are able to satisfy their basic needs (food, water, shelter) and therefore they don't have to spend their entire days and lives only to stay alive but instead can indulge in more profound activities. And all this only due to one thing, even if it's perpetually opposed, namely freedom. Freedom to live, own and trade, i.e. the absence of political hinders. I totally agree that the world is still quite a filthy place to live in as a whole, but that's not because we don't yet have an automagical technocratic system that's controlled... oh wait, I just realized you didn't answer my question.

Now, Who would develop, produce and maintain all these wonderful machines that would serve the humanity?

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P A N

Dotoar, if i don't admire your mind, at least i can admire your conviction.

that being said, please begin to use your imagination. if you do not, you can conceive of nothing other than what the environment in which you were raised is telling you to.


regarding the elite: there is no "fact-book" regarding these issues, because the elite are they who control what is perceived as truth. if this is hard to grasp, just start researching flouride in water systems. it's happening all over the world, even though it slows your brain down and makes you complacent and much less sexually adventurous. if there were no elite, no one would be allowed to add detrimental implements to the way we run the world... they wouldn't be allowed to do things which make zero sense.

there are no universities who teach their students to get smart so they can start a revolution.


regarding rational minds and war boosting the economy: i agree with your statement about what a rational mind is, but i do not agree that a rational mind is an intrinsic factor in the creating of wealth. i think the richest people in the world are absolutely insane. how else could they rationalize the divide between the rich and the poor and the vast polarity regarding who gets what?

and war destroying capital?? look at the manufacturers of weapons and ammunition. they make billions upon billions of dollars making man-killing machines and to the effect that the majority of it be redeposited right back into the economy. i can hardly believe i just found someone who thinks war is bad for business.

OIL: can also hardly believe i just found someone who thinks oil is efficient. sure. think that. just keep not thinking about peak oil.

Planned obsolescence and your video: i have no idea what you meant in posting that video, nor whether or not you agree that planned obsolescence is necessary for the monetary economic paradigm to function properly.

me and being even remotely familiar with economic theory: i tend to look at indoctrinated thought as a hindrance to a practical outlook. why would i read books by people who have convinced themselves - via spending astronomical amounts of money to go to school - that they are actually capable of conceiving how money in the world works, when i can just look at the world, and see plainly that money doesn't work?


developing, producing and maintaining all these wonderful machines that would serve humanity: the people would do it. if you read the entire thread, or used your imagination and some love instead harbouring contempt for something you don't want to understand (for whatever reason), you might be able to envision the world working much the same as it does now, minus money equaling or even replacing value, and thus the natural rate of evolution would be able to occur. competition and monetary value are not inherent. inbred, maybe. but certainly not a staple of our existence, and more importantly, put caps on how fast things can progress.


i don't think i'm gonna change your mind dotoar. but i'm not gonna lie. i want you to change it yourself, because your mindset is a destructive thing.

money isn't matter.