Thoughts on the Zeitgeist Movement

OceanAndSilence · 02-17-2010, 07:04 PM

lol, there's a movement? oh dear.

lucifer_sam · 02-17-2010, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zevokes

and to lucifer sam: you're right. but there were less people back then and the idea of money thusly made a little more sense as far as accurately distributing goods and services. the only way to acquire money was/is to work for it. the problem now is that we don't even need as many services as we have, they've mostly just been invented so as people can get their hands on some cash. namely in food and beverage ventures... which i do believe has it's first fully automated installation somewhere in germany. that's right. a fully-automated restaurant.

so back then you're right. there was huge incentive for scientists and engineers and all those specialists to create new things. but what a selfish driver. einstein didn't do what he did for money. he did what he did cuz he couldn't stop thinking about it.

and we now have enormous advantages in our creative tool set: computers. you can program these babies to do anything... even get them working on the next generation of computers (and PLEASE don't start about computers becoming self-aware with motives and aspirations. that's for the movies.).

it's likely that we're all so attached to the idea of competition because of two things. one being that if we can manage to make it in this world that otherwise makes us feel anonymous, then we can achieve some sort of identity. the second being that it is ingrained in us. not just by the media and schools, but also and largely by the fact that WE HAVE NEVER UP UNTIL NOW HAD THE MEANS TO OVERCOME IT.

it's like the world being flat versus the world being round. people speculated that it might be round, and were ridiculed and ostracized, because no one could wrap their head around the idea... no one could imagine it. only to be proved quite wrong of course. was it the tool going by the name of the 'telescope' that allowed the people on the shore to first see the mast and sails of a ship coming over the horizon and minutes later see the hull? that's a tool.

now we have better tools, and we can start imagining better things.

How is this relevant whatsoever? Einstein was a twenty-something working in a patent office at the time, his incentive was recognition and fame; he got financial security along with those too. His pursuit of the theory of general relativity had fuck all to do with any altruistic purpose you might be under the delusion of.

And I don't know how better to make you comprehend this: today's engineers and scientists are driven by competition. The only way that anything gets designed or researched is when it offers the potential for fiscal incentive for an industrial application. Unless there is some competitive advantage to pursuing a project, it won't get done. End of story.

Perhaps you're accustomed to the trafficking in metaphor and allegory but your ideas don't offer any justification or reasoning whatsoever. Consider probing the depths of your well of research before you respond; I'm not really interested in more Utopian metaphor.

duga · 02-17-2010, 09:20 PM

^

yep.

and kudos for actually reading his whole post.

P A N · 02-18-2010, 09:47 AM

you don't have to MAKE me comprehend anything, thanks. i comprehend without your all-knowing help just fine thanks. oops. slipped up on that einstein comment. now i'm f*cked.

and i'm very surprised at how well you are just able to assume the outcome of a completely non-existent reality,

i didn't start this thread to take over the world. you may have mistaken my penchant for typing lengthy possibilities as something like that, but i'm just a dude on a thread talkin' about weird sh*t... apparently to people who take everything way too seriously, so seriously in fact that they even include instructions on how to better have the conversation that they want no part in other than to strip it of anything that makes it fun to talk about.

and your argument doesn't offer much reasoning either pal. it basically just says that i'm wrong because competition rules the world. and i understand why think that, but i don't understand WHY. why does it HAVE to be like that?

so we can all keep being as*holes?

cardboard adolescent · 02-18-2010, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucifer_sam

How is this relevant whatsoever? Einstein was a twenty-something working in a patent office at the time, his incentive was recognition and fame; he got financial security along with those too. His pursuit of the theory of general relativity had fuck all to do with any altruistic purpose you might be under the delusion of.

And I don't know how better to make you comprehend this: today's engineers and scientists are driven by competition. The only way that anything gets designed or researched is when it offers the potential for fiscal incentive for an industrial application. Unless there is some competitive advantage to pursuing a project, it won't get done. End of story.

Perhaps you're accustomed to the trafficking in metaphor and allegory but your ideas don't offer any justification or reasoning whatsoever. Consider probing the depths of your well of research before you respond; I'm not really interested in more Utopian metaphor.

you're wrong. einstein was trying to figure out the universe. it has nothing to do with altruism, it has to do with will to truth, which has driven people for a very, very long time. people who search desperately for truth very quickly realize that it has nothing to do with other people, except insofar as they are on the same path.

lucifer_sam · 02-18-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

you're wrong. einstein was trying to figure out the universe. it has nothing to do with altruism, it has to do with will to truth, which has driven people for a very, very long time. people who search desperately for truth very quickly realize that it has nothing to do with other people, except insofar as they are on the same path.

Perhaps so. What I'm trying to say is he was compensated for his contribution to society, it wasn't as if his efforts went unrewarded.

And also, had there been no practical application to his research, it would have not received nearly as much recognition as it holds today.

Fruitonica · 02-18-2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

of course, people will still have to work, just not in the same way we view it today. again, automation would excel in this framework, because we would constantly be thinking of new ways to relieve people of mundane tasks and skills easily accomplished by machines. the more people don't have to go to work, the more time they can spend with their families, or do some of those things they'd always wanted to do like travelling or going on tour...

I'm not going to weigh in on the whole discussion because I'm not sure what you really mean when you say resource based economy and I'm not going to watch the movie to find out. If you could give a better explanation of how things would function without cash then it would help.

But, if you haven't already - read Player's Piano by Kurt Vonnegut - it revolves around a world where almost all tasks have been automated, and it isn't a particularly pleasant one.

P A N · 02-19-2010, 09:54 AM

so you want me to explain the whole thing to you because you won't watch the film or find the manifesto? and then you tell me to go read something that you feel is applicable, written by someone with one of the most out-there imaginations ever? gimme a break guys. i'm not the mascot.

Fruitonica · 02-19-2010, 08:29 PM

Fair enough - I went to website and had a read around. But really, more the I read the more wildly optimistic the whole thing becomes.

I mean, just the quote;

Quote:

Police, prisons and the military would no longer be necessary when goods, services, healthcare, and education are available to all people.

is ridiculous. Do you really think that conflict will disappear from the world entirely?

And about Player's Piano, Vonnegut has an out-there imagination, but a pretty good grasp on human nature. Infinite leisure time isn't necessarily a good thing, people like to feel useful and valued and a lot of that comes through occupation and competition.

P A N · 02-20-2010, 12:10 PM

i don't think conflict will disappear from the world entirely, and i agree with your comment about vonnegut.

i think there will be people who are felt sorry for, either for their inability or their unwillingness to participate in such a shift in perspective, the former being due to differences in physiology, the latter being from will itself, or lack thereof. there will always be dissent, no matter what system you implement, and the individual therein who decides to partake in activities either amoral or outright wrong, will not be able to fully indulge in what we'd created.

people would catch on, and we would see less and less of these current cancerous attributes of the human floating about, realizing (hopefully faster than not) that the VAST MAJORITY of conflict is resultant of a system unable to bear the weight of its charges.

i don't believe prisons will ever disappear, but i believe with pretty much all of myself that the need for them is beyond grossly exaggerated, as is the use of them. i can't call it impossible though. there are probably things about criminal minds that i just don't understand, and could very well be wiped out via mass psychological cleansing. i just haven't come across anything that outlines this in such a way which makes me believe it's possible.

as for militaries, i don't believe we need them now. they serve primarily to invade, conquer, and reap the benefits of stolen land under the guise of protection. the really f*cked up thing about militaries is that people now seem to unanimously agree that war is good for the economy. in my mind, mass psychological cleansing would help to rid the people of such disgusting mindsets. and by mass psychological cleansing i'm not talking about little speakers under your pillow, or weekly visits to the state-employed therapist. i mean instead of the television and radio being used to entertain our bored asses, it's used to inform everyone that most of what they think they know about how the world works is wrong.

"Don't get mad guys. We're really working on it this time."

02-17-2010, 07:04 PM	#21 (permalink)
OceanAndSilence i write and play stuff Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 239	lol, there's a movement? oh dear. __________________ http://www.myspace.com/chrisneto - tune in to chill out

02-17-2010, 09:20 PM	#23 (permalink)
duga MB quadrant's JM Vincent Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 3,762	^ yep. and kudos for actually reading his whole post. __________________ Confusion will be my epitaph...

02-20-2010, 12:10 PM	#30 (permalink)
P A N DO LIKE YOU. Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 629	i don't think conflict will disappear from the world entirely, and i agree with your comment about vonnegut. i think there will be people who are felt sorry for, either for their inability or their unwillingness to participate in such a shift in perspective, the former being due to differences in physiology, the latter being from will itself, or lack thereof. there will always be dissent, no matter what system you implement, and the individual therein who decides to partake in activities either amoral or outright wrong, will not be able to fully indulge in what we'd created. people would catch on, and we would see less and less of these current cancerous attributes of the human floating about, realizing (hopefully faster than not) that the VAST MAJORITY of conflict is resultant of a system unable to bear the weight of its charges. i don't believe prisons will ever disappear, but i believe with pretty much all of myself that the need for them is beyond grossly exaggerated, as is the use of them. i can't call it impossible though. there are probably things about criminal minds that i just don't understand, and could very well be wiped out via mass psychological cleansing. i just haven't come across anything that outlines this in such a way which makes me believe it's possible. as for militaries, i don't believe we need them now. they serve primarily to invade, conquer, and reap the benefits of stolen land under the guise of protection. the really fcked up thing about militaries is that people now seem to unanimously agree that war is good for the economy. in my mind, mass psychological cleansing would help to rid the people of such disgusting mindsets. and by mass psychological cleansing i'm not talking about little speakers under your pillow, or weekly visits to the state-employed therapist. i mean instead of the television and radio being used to entertain our bored asses, it's used to inform everyone that most of what they think they know about how the world works is wrong. "Don't get mad guys. We're really working on it this time." Last edited by P A N; 02-20-2010 at 02:56 PM.*

02-18-2010, 09:47 AM	#24 (permalink)
P A N DO LIKE YOU. Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 629	you don't have to MAKE me comprehend anything, thanks. i comprehend without your all-knowing help just fine thanks. oops. slipped up on that einstein comment. now i'm fcked. and i'm very surprised at how well you are just able to assume the outcome of a completely non-existent reality, i didn't start this thread to take over the world. you may have mistaken my penchant for typing lengthy possibilities as something like that, but i'm just a dude on a thread talkin' about weird sht... apparently to people who take everything way too seriously, so seriously in fact that they even include instructions on how to better have the conversation that they want no part in other than to strip it of anything that makes it fun to talk about. and your argument doesn't offer much reasoning either pal. it basically just says that i'm wrong because competition rules the world. and i understand why think that, but i don't understand WHY. why does it HAVE to be like that? so we can all keep being as*holes?

02-19-2010, 09:54 AM	#28 (permalink)
P A N DO LIKE YOU. Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 629	so you want me to explain the whole thing to you because you won't watch the film or find the manifesto? and then you tell me to go read something that you feel is applicable, written by someone with one of the most out-there imaginations ever? gimme a break guys. i'm not the mascot.