Nationalism

loveissucide · 11-06-2009, 06:40 AM

It's a subject I've been thinking about a lot, and I'm curious as to what you think as regards the idea of nationalism, and whether it causes more harm than good. Living in Ireland,it's always very much on the agenda due to the division between North and South, and the fact we owe our independence to nationalist revolutionaries. But the problem that arises here is that it's also to blame for the Troubles, in addition to atrocities committed in it's name in the former Yugoslavia,Chechnya, and both World Wars. Is it a genuinely necessary thing for human welfare, or should social and economic issues be of much greater priority?

**Janszoon** · 11-06-2009, 07:18 AM

Nationalism sucks. It does way more harm than good, in fact I can't think of a singe positive example of it.

Guybrush · 11-06-2009, 10:49 AM

In Norway, we owe a great deal to the romantic nationalists of the 19th century. They wrote down and preserved much of old norwegian culture like information about dialects, customs and old folk tales. A great deal of our national treasures in poetry, art, litterature, music and so on come from the romantics. There's also the matter of our independence from Denmark/Sweden.

Today, nationalism may have a bad ring to it in some countries - certainly in Germany for example. Here, being pro and proud of your country and cultural background has few negative connotations.

The celebrations on our national day, the 17th of may, would probably scare some people ..

Of course the average norwegian is only a true nationalist once a year or so. If it's something you occupy yourself with constantly, then you may be a little screwed up in your ideology I guess.

loveissucide · 11-06-2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Nationalism sucks. It does way more harm than good, in fact I can't think of a singe positive example of it.

Irish nationalism freed us from oppression and being cotrolled by a Britain which neglected us and persecuted Catholics throughout history.And there's all those colonies in Africa,Asia and South America who won the right to self-government thanks to nationalist feeling in their countries.

Barnard17 · 11-06-2009, 12:39 PM

Depends on the extent of nationalism. First it's important to establish what nationalism is and then to go on to look at the effects it has.

The nation refers to a group of people who consider themselves to carry a common identity. What that identity truly is is a matter of discussion and broad interpretation; usually this will be some form of genealogical notion that your ancestors have come from the same place for many generations and this builds a sense of unity between the group. This common identity will tend to also be expressed through culture (for example the idea that all Americans love going to watch Nascar and vote at elections. Ok, a very bad example but you get what I mean ...), religion (for example the BNP toting that Britain is a "Christian nation"), language. So nationalism refers to placing a degree of priority towards those that you perceive to share that common identity, whatever that may be. Belgium is notable a country made up of two very distinct nations: the Flemish community and the French community. Similarly it can be said that Canada is a state of two/multiple nations, as with the UK. Whereas less diverse states such as Iceland could be said to be a state of one nationality. This is also further complicated by globalisation and the ease with which people can, today, immigrate to other nations.

Nationalism differs from patriotism because patriotism is a love of a country, nationalism is a love of a people.

In international politics you'll hear the phrase thrown around of "nation state"; the idea of a nation state is a relatively new one with the concept first developing from the French Revolution and the idea that it is the people, the nation, that make the state what it is rather than either something intrinsic to the land or the leader/monarch. Coupled with propaganda during the second World War claiming that the fight was against enslavement of the evil axis, to allow people to continue self determining was what led to the downfall of the European Empires (which the nations that supported the allies as a part of their empires during the war got home and said "well if we were fighting for their freedom and right to be self-determining, what about ours?")

So, is nationalism bad? For a long time I believed intrinsically yes, and to this day I still believe that the only true common identity that we do realistically hold and in this increasingly shrinking world SHOULD hold is that of being fellow human beings. However the answer is much more complicated than a clear cut yes or no.

Nationalism can be good:
It can help to strengthen the sense of unity and belonging that a society feels towards it's fellow inhabitants.
It can help to bring resolve for inhabitants to achieve a distinction of governance and self determination that's not allowed by a monarch, autocrat or dictator (France, perhaps also the fall of the Iron Curtain in '89 and perhaps also the raising of the Iron Curtain in '17)
It can help to bring a people together against an oppressive body that ignores or mistreats the populace of a nation (id est, post-colonial african and asian states [though it's debatable how well this was pulled off, especially in some places], the relative success story that is Ireland).

Nationalism can be bad:
It breeds distrust between people who consider themselves to be of different nationalities (the BNP fear mongering islamophobic platform).
It's used to justify wholesale slaughter of those arrogantly considered to be of a lesser nationality (holocaust, Rwanda).
It can be misplaced, backwards and pointlessly ineffective (Cornwall separatists)

So in answer. Nationalism can be good and bad, it depends on the manner in which it manifests and also the level of zeal with which it does so. To the extent that it can strengthen communal bonds that is by no means a bad thing, but if it rages ahead and creates a sense of arrogance over those of other nationalities then it goes to far and becomes a negative trait.

**Janszoon** · 11-06-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loveissucide

Irish nationalism freed us from oppression and being cotrolled by a Britain which neglected us and persecuted Catholics throughout history.And there's all those colonies in Africa,Asia and South America who won the right to self-government thanks to nationalist feeling in their countries.

All which countries? Asia, Africa and South America are full of countries that contain constellations of cultures squeezed into the artificial boundaries of modern nations.

Neapolitan · 11-07-2009, 12:09 AM

Nationalism is like pride, it can be a virtue or a vice; it's not what you have but what you do with it. Nationalism is challenge by two seemingly opposite processes: Balkanization and Globalization.

Nationality hasa slightly different connotation in America, being a country of immigrants, nationality is identified with thier ancestry, ethnic and cultural background, not so much in the sense of citizenship.

screemin187 · 11-07-2009, 06:50 AM

Nationalism breeds fanaticism breeds terrorism

I firmly believe the divide between Northern & Southern Ireland is now cemented by Northern Ireland peoples memories of terrorism as much as their cultural identity

Quite often those who fuel these ideals are not on the receiving end of the consequences of their beliefs/decisions/funding

I have a young family now who i hope never have to experience what we went through and will carve out their future with the ballot box and not the threat of murderers/terrorists killing innocent people

Inuzuka Skysword · 11-07-2009, 07:24 AM

How can you raise your self-esteem through recognizing the fruits of a country? You can't. Nationalism is just another form of collectivism.

Barnard17 · 11-07-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by screemin187

Nationalism breeds fanaticism breeds terrorism

Liking steak breeds obesity breeds heart attack.

Leap leap leap. I can like steak without bloating myself unto death. People can be nationalist without devolving into an arrogant racist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

How can you raise your self-esteem through recognizing the fruits of a country?

That would be patriotism. Nationalism is the actual or imagined connection to a common identity often based on a sense of both ancestry and culture.

11-06-2009, 06:40 AM	#1 (permalink)
loveissucide Himself Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Leuven ,Belgium, via Ireland Posts: 1,325	Nationalism It's a subject I've been thinking about a lot, and I'm curious as to what you think as regards the idea of nationalism, and whether it causes more harm than good. Living in Ireland,it's always very much on the agenda due to the division between North and South, and the fact we owe our independence to nationalist revolutionaries. But the problem that arises here is that it's also to blame for the Troubles, in addition to atrocities committed in it's name in the former Yugoslavia,Chechnya, and both World Wars. Is it a genuinely necessary thing for human welfare, or should social and economic issues be of much greater priority? __________________ www.last.fm/user/p-mccusker http://www.mixcloud.com/pmccusker www.valjester.wordpress.com

11-06-2009, 07:18 AM	#2 (permalink)
Janszoon Mate, Spawn & Die Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Rapping Community Posts: 24,593	Nationalism sucks. It does way more harm than good, in fact I can't think of a singe positive example of it. __________________ A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man Time & Place 25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die last.fm

11-06-2009, 10:49 AM	#3 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	In Norway, we owe a great deal to the romantic nationalists of the 19th century. They wrote down and preserved much of old norwegian culture like information about dialects, customs and old folk tales. A great deal of our national treasures in poetry, art, litterature, music and so on come from the romantics. There's also the matter of our independence from Denmark/Sweden. Today, nationalism may have a bad ring to it in some countries - certainly in Germany for example. Here, being pro and proud of your country and cultural background has few negative connotations. The celebrations on our national day, the 17th of may, would probably scare some people .. Of course the average norwegian is only a true nationalist once a year or so. If it's something you occupy yourself with constantly, then you may be a little screwed up in your ideology I guess. __________________ Something Completely Different

11-06-2009, 12:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
Barnard17 My home? Discabled, Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 204	Depends on the extent of nationalism. First it's important to establish what nationalism is and then to go on to look at the effects it has. The nation refers to a group of people who consider themselves to carry a common identity. What that identity truly is is a matter of discussion and broad interpretation; usually this will be some form of genealogical notion that your ancestors have come from the same place for many generations and this builds a sense of unity between the group. This common identity will tend to also be expressed through culture (for example the idea that all Americans love going to watch Nascar and vote at elections. Ok, a very bad example but you get what I mean ...), religion (for example the BNP toting that Britain is a "Christian nation"), language. So nationalism refers to placing a degree of priority towards those that you perceive to share that common identity, whatever that may be. Belgium is notable a country made up of two very distinct nations: the Flemish community and the French community. Similarly it can be said that Canada is a state of two/multiple nations, as with the UK. Whereas less diverse states such as Iceland could be said to be a state of one nationality. This is also further complicated by globalisation and the ease with which people can, today, immigrate to other nations. Nationalism differs from patriotism because patriotism is a love of a country, nationalism is a love of a people. In international politics you'll hear the phrase thrown around of "nation state"; the idea of a nation state is a relatively new one with the concept first developing from the French Revolution and the idea that it is the people, the nation, that make the state what it is rather than either something intrinsic to the land or the leader/monarch. Coupled with propaganda during the second World War claiming that the fight was against enslavement of the evil axis, to allow people to continue self determining was what led to the downfall of the European Empires (which the nations that supported the allies as a part of their empires during the war got home and said "well if we were fighting for their freedom and right to be self-determining, what about ours?") So, is nationalism bad? For a long time I believed intrinsically yes, and to this day I still believe that the only true common identity that we do realistically hold and in this increasingly shrinking world SHOULD hold is that of being fellow human beings. However the answer is much more complicated than a clear cut yes or no. Nationalism can be good: It can help to strengthen the sense of unity and belonging that a society feels towards it's fellow inhabitants. It can help to bring resolve for inhabitants to achieve a distinction of governance and self determination that's not allowed by a monarch, autocrat or dictator (France, perhaps also the fall of the Iron Curtain in '89 and perhaps also the raising of the Iron Curtain in '17) It can help to bring a people together against an oppressive body that ignores or mistreats the populace of a nation (id est, post-colonial african and asian states [though it's debatable how well this was pulled off, especially in some places], the relative success story that is Ireland). Nationalism can be bad: It breeds distrust between people who consider themselves to be of different nationalities (the BNP fear mongering islamophobic platform). It's used to justify wholesale slaughter of those arrogantly considered to be of a lesser nationality (holocaust, Rwanda). It can be misplaced, backwards and pointlessly ineffective (Cornwall separatists) So in answer. Nationalism can be good and bad, it depends on the manner in which it manifests and also the level of zeal with which it does so. To the extent that it can strengthen communal bonds that is by no means a bad thing, but if it rages ahead and creates a sense of arrogance over those of other nationalities then it goes to far and becomes a negative trait. __________________ Vita brevis, Occasio praeceps

11-07-2009, 06:50 AM	#8 (permalink)
screemin187 Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: County Antrim Posts: 68	Nationalism breeds fanaticism breeds terrorism I firmly believe the divide between Northern & Southern Ireland is now cemented by Northern Ireland peoples memories of terrorism as much as their cultural identity Quite often those who fuel these ideals are not on the receiving end of the consequences of their beliefs/decisions/funding I have a young family now who i hope never have to experience what we went through and will carve out their future with the ballot box and not the threat of murderers/terrorists killing innocent people

11-07-2009, 07:24 AM	#9 (permalink)
Inuzuka Skysword Existential Egoist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,468	How can you raise your self-esteem through recognizing the fruits of a country? You can't. Nationalism is just another form of collectivism.