Nationalism

screemin187 · 11-07-2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Liking steak breeds obesity breeds heart attack

Yes if you are passionate enough about steaks lol

Those passionate enough about nationalism or unionism or whatever have taken it to the extreme was my point

I'm happy to live in harmony, i don't give a **** if ireland becomes united or flys the union jack so long as we don't go back to the atrocities

Inuzuka Skysword · 11-07-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnard17

Liking steak breeds obesity breeds heart attack.

Leap leap leap. I can like steak without bloating myself unto death. People can be nationalist without devolving into an arrogant racist.

That would be patriotism. Nationalism is the actual or imagined connection to a common identity often based on a sense of both ancestry and culture.

It is basically the same idea. You are lumping yourselves in with people saying you are similar because of who your relatives were and because of where you were born. Of course, you aren't responsible for either so there is no reason to have pride.

Guybrush · 11-07-2009, 03:41 PM

Haha, I don't think this discussion is working very well. It's appearant people are thinking about wildly different things. Some are thinking of civil war, some are thinking of nazism, some are thinking of freedom and I'm thinking of basically appreciating where you come from.

I don't think it's working

**Janszoon** · 11-07-2009, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

Haha, I don't think this discussion is working very well. It's appearant people are thinking about wildly different things. Some are thinking of civil war, some are thinking of nazism, some are thinking of freedom and I'm thinking of basically appreciating where you come from.

I don't think it's working

Well here's the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of nationalism, which seems pretty accurate to me. Maybe that will help people come to a common understanding.

Loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

Barnard17 · 11-07-2009, 04:13 PM

With the Chambers definition of nation being:

1 the people living in, belonging to, and together forming, a single state. 2 a race of people of common descent, history, language or culture, etc, but not necessarily bound by defined territorial limits of a state. 3 a Native American tribe or federation of tribes

**Janszoon** · 11-07-2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnard17

With the Chambers definition of nation being:

1 the people living in, belonging to, and together forming, a single state. 2 a race of people of common descent, history, language or culture, etc, but not necessarily bound by defined territorial limits of a state. 3 a Native American tribe or federation of tribes

I would say I agree with definition 1 but not definition 2.

Barnard17 · 11-07-2009, 04:41 PM

Which is not an opinion shared by all. For example the Basque, Irish Republicans in Northern and Ireland and Eire, Cornwall separatists, the collective Islamic nation evoked in rhetoric used by Khomeini as part of the Iranian revolution, the Jewish nationality. You may well live in a nation state where the normative perception of nation conforms well to state borders but the fact of the matter is you can ask a lot of people their nationality and get no answers of relevance to functioning global borders as they're understood by Foreign policy.

**Janszoon** · 11-07-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnard17

Which is not an opinion shared by all.

Right. Sort of like agreement over the accuracy of definition 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnard17

WFor example the Basque, Irish Republicans in Northern and Ireland and Eire, Cornwall separatists, the collective Islamic nation evoked in rhetoric used by Khomeini as part of the Iranian revolution, the Jewish nationality. You may well live in a nation state where the normative perception of nation conforms well to state borders but the fact of the matter is you can ask a lot of people their nationality and get no answers of relevance to functioning global borders as they're understood by Foreign policy.

I would describe those groups you mention as cultures instead of as nations. And I think the United Nations would agree with that me on that.

Barnard17 · 11-07-2009, 05:02 PM

United Nations is misnamed. The correct name for it would be United States. Wanna guess why they didn't choose that?

When you use the word nationalism in a discussion regarding the merits of nationalism, this is what you're talking about. If Cornish separatists got their way and split from England would they suddenly become a nation because they're self-governing? No, they suddenly become a state because they're legally recognised as a separate, self-governing entity. The notion of a Cornish nationality would have been existent for hundreds of years before hand. The difference is the transition from being a Cornish nation, to a Cornish nation state.

mr dave · 11-07-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Nationalism sucks. It does way more harm than good, in fact I can't think of a singe positive example of it.

same here, i just don't 'get' it. i can understand taking pride in something you've done specifically but not the greater plot of land your body happened to be birthed in, or the fact that all your neighbors share the same ideologies.

like others have said there are virtuous and vicious examples of each. although when it becomes an issue of 'my country is better than your country' then it's all garbage.

quite frankly, i can't think of any examples of national or cultural pride that don't have a clear 'villain' in its history. it's not to say that pride is a bad thing so much that nationalism (definition 2) generally provides a very simple and effective outlet for an individual's negativity and hate if they so choose to follow it.

it's like no one (nation / culture) wants to allow anyone else to forget their misdeeds for fear that someone else might forget their individuality.

11-07-2009, 03:41 PM	#13 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Haha, I don't think this discussion is working very well. It's appearant people are thinking about wildly different things. Some are thinking of civil war, some are thinking of nazism, some are thinking of freedom and I'm thinking of basically appreciating where you come from. I don't think it's working __________________ Something Completely Different

11-07-2009, 04:13 PM	#15 (permalink)
Barnard17 My home? Discabled, Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 204	With the Chambers definition of nation being: 1 the people living in, belonging to, and together forming, a single state. 2 a race of people of common descent, history, language or culture, etc, but not necessarily bound by defined territorial limits of a state. 3 a Native American tribe or federation of tribes __________________ Vita brevis, Occasio praeceps

11-07-2009, 04:41 PM	#17 (permalink)
Barnard17 My home? Discabled, Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 204	Which is not an opinion shared by all. For example the Basque, Irish Republicans in Northern and Ireland and Eire, Cornwall separatists, the collective Islamic nation evoked in rhetoric used by Khomeini as part of the Iranian revolution, the Jewish nationality. You may well live in a nation state where the normative perception of nation conforms well to state borders but the fact of the matter is you can ask a lot of people their nationality and get no answers of relevance to functioning global borders as they're understood by Foreign policy. __________________ Vita brevis, Occasio praeceps

11-07-2009, 05:02 PM	#19 (permalink)
Barnard17 My home? Discabled, Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 204	United Nations is misnamed. The correct name for it would be United States. Wanna guess why they didn't choose that? When you use the word nationalism in a discussion regarding the merits of nationalism, this is what you're talking about. If Cornish separatists got their way and split from England would they suddenly become a nation because they're self-governing? No, they suddenly become a state because they're legally recognised as a separate, self-governing entity. The notion of a Cornish nationality would have been existent for hundreds of years before hand. The difference is the transition from being a Cornish nation, to a Cornish nation state. __________________ Vita brevis, Occasio praeceps