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View Poll Results: What religion do you follow?
Christianity 38 20.32%
Buddhism 3 1.60%
Hinduism 1 0.53%
Islam 2 1.07%
Judaism 4 2.14%
Wiccanism 1 0.53%
Other established religion (feel free to post about it) 6 3.21%
Self-defined 25 13.37%
Don't follow any religion & don't believe in deities (atheist) 68 36.36%
Not Sure, undecided, don't know or don't care 39 20.86%
Sikhism 0 0%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-19-2015, 04:01 PM   #491 (permalink)
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read at your own peril...

Is Atheism a Religion? - Room for Debate - NYTimes.com
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Old 12-19-2015, 04:12 PM   #492 (permalink)
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I hate the use of the word beliefs in regard to hard science. Does one have a belief in gravity? Or atomic energy? Or a person's white blood cell count and how it relates to cancer?

Belief @ Dictionary.com

noun
1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction:
a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:
a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust:
a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith:
the Christian belief.

The only people I encounter who refer to science as a belief system are those who question its validity in relation to evolution and God in general.
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Old 12-19-2015, 04:15 PM   #493 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hip-Hop Homework View Post
The simple fact that you take a position of authority in asserting there is no fundamental set of beliefs opens the floor for the argument that there is some authoritative source to support your claim (if you wanna claim credibility) and that in turn supports the notion that there is a structure from which you derive your authority...you know, something upon which a foundation is built--ergo fundamental.
What on earth are you talking about? I am making a claim based on logic and observation. Whatever the hell you just said is simply incoherent nonsense.

Quote:
And the scientific community embodies the definition more than any other group...it is THE MOST-structured embodiment of a religion with regards to uniform acceptance and systematic belief, permitting varying degrees of adherence within dissenting subsects...but nevertheless a system of beliefs at the core. It's the epitome of organized religion from the standpoint of rigorous academic testing of the definition. Deductive reason, part of the scientific method and the prediction is an exercise of "faith" too!

How are you not seeing that?
I'm seeing your point fine. What you are failing to see is that using the same word to describe both Christianity and the scientific community dilutes the meaning of the word to the point that it becomes useless as a descriptor. If you wanna call them both a religion, then you need at least two other, different words to fall under the umbrella of the definition of "religion".

Language is meant to define objects and ideas, not draw vague, tenuous links between two otherwise unrelated objects/ideas.
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Old 12-19-2015, 04:19 PM   #494 (permalink)
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As an English teacher, I agree with the atheist on this one.
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Old 12-19-2015, 05:25 PM   #495 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The Batlord View Post
What on earth are you talking about? I am making a claim based on logic and observation. Whatever the hell you just said is simply incoherent nonsense.



I'm seeing your point fine. What you are failing to see is that using the same word to describe both Christianity and the scientific community dilutes the meaning of the word to the point that it becomes useless as a descriptor. If you wanna call them both a religion, then you need at least two other, different words to fall under the umbrella of the definition of "religion".

Language is meant to define objects and ideas, not draw vague, tenuous links between two otherwise unrelated objects/ideas.
I'm using the same word to describe the essential and abstract qualities that uniquely identify the idea of a religion for two discrete examples...objectively. I'm not using the same word to describe both Christianity and the scientific community, quite the opposite--I'm using them both to describe a religion.

If you think Christianity and the scientific community are unrelated in the discussion of what qualifies as a religion, there might be something tenuous here and it's your sense of reason. You admittedly are approaching this subjectively by citing your own observations to support your claim...so it's already sustainable that you're approaching this from a perspective of what religion means to you (thereby omitting any objectivity) and not how religion is academically-defined or exists apart from any subjective interpretation, and I defer to the authority of a dictionary before some misguided interpretation of a stranger.

There are myriads of examples from both the merriam-webster listing and dictionary.com including communities most would traditionally not associate with the colloquial usage of religion, but people omitting those examples either betrays a failure to understand it or willful omission that's not faithful to the strict definition of the word...how I use it. Do whatchu feel...if there's an "ATHEIST CHURCH" in London and you can't admit that supports my claim, I can deal with that.

If your understanding of a religion requires acquiescence of a deity, you clearly fail to understand what a religion is.

And I'm clocking out of this race to see who can cross the finishline to foolville first.

See you on the other side, man.
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Old 12-19-2015, 05:42 PM   #496 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chula Vista View Post
I hate the use of the word beliefs in regard to hard science. Does one have a belief in gravity? Or atomic energy? Or a person's white blood cell count and how it relates to cancer?

Belief @ Dictionary.com

noun
1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction:
a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:
a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust:
a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith:
the Christian belief.

The only people I encounter who refer to science as a belief system are those who question its validity in relation to evolution and God in general.
well scientists term it a theory...but that's a toe-may-toe toe-mah-toe issue. That's the thing about science I believe people don't keep in perspective...that it's not concrete in the sense that ideas are mutable. It's concrete in the sense of dealing with facts, collection, analyzation, etc. But the majority of quantum physics deals with theories, none of which are provable by our current state of technology. It's a lot of mathematical systems but anybody with a background in mathematics knows that you can define a math equation to model any problem but just 'cause you're dealing with certainties such as integer values doesn't mean that the equation was accurately modeled after the system it is attempting to prove.

Iunno, but yeah original point a theory is a belief in something and that belief is subject to change given evidence to overturn the original belief. Science doesn't consider it a cold, hard fact until it's passed rigorous testing and over time is then considered a law.

They keep looking for a unified theory between relativity and quantum physics, that's what Michio Kaku's doing with his unified field theory working, coming from a background in quantum physics.

But all the mathematical models and theories that the most brilliant minds of our time can't do it yet... Science is equally as questionable, in fact there are many unknown and unexplained phenomena that science can't explain.

Everybody wants to arrogantly assume humanity has it all figured out. It's silly. There's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" and then resolving to discover. It's that very mentality that has driven discovery and invention for hundreds of years but it couldn't have been done without humbling one's self first and then approaching discovery with an objective mind set.

It's cool, we don't have to discuss semantics anymore. I've already warned that debates break down before they even get off the ground when there is no consensus on the definition of the subjects of the debate.

I am not contesting your definition of a belief but if you don't see how a theory is a suspended belief in the stage before knowledge, that's another dog chasing its own tail discussion.
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Old 12-19-2015, 05:45 PM   #497 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chula Vista View Post
I hate the use of the word beliefs in regard to hard science. Does one have a belief in gravity? Or atomic energy? Or a person's white blood cell count and how it relates to cancer?

Belief @ Dictionary.com

noun
1.
something believed; an opinion or conviction:
a belief that the earth is flat.
2.
confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof:
a statement unworthy of belief.
3.
confidence; faith; trust:
a child's belief in his parents.
4.
a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith:
the Christian belief.

The only people I encounter who refer to science as a belief system are those who question its validity in relation to evolution and God in general.
Kinda sums it up for me!
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Old 12-19-2015, 05:52 PM   #498 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hip-Hop Homework View Post
The merriam-webster copyright expired some years ago so it's no longer the authority it once was as now anybody can print a dictionary flying under that banner; I haven't taken the time to understand how this might impact their website and its sources but I seldom use it. I find its definitions tend to be somewhat dated compared to dictionary.com's.

I prefer dictionary.com as it maintains its library of definitions quite well and I believe is a credible, authoritative source.

let's see what they have to say...

noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices:
a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.:
to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:
to make a religion of fighting prejudice.


The way I see it, Iunno aboutchu, atheism fits the bill for 4/6 of the nuanced definitions. As you can see, when you consider the word as a whole, and you don't have to but I would...I don't think there's any point of contention that atheism isn't a religion. The million-dollar question is how to objectively prove atheists adhere to a specific set of beliefs or practices but I just observe the same practice atheists use for observers of other religions--personal experience. However, I acknowledge that even within a community you will not find the uniform mentality, behavior, or adherence many people would have us believe by making statements with sweeping generalizations, or painting with broad strokes if you will.

I raise the argument that atheism is a religion because many atheists/agnostics contend Christians (few are honest enough to acknowledge exception) are the same, as though that somehow allows for an objective observation knowing fully-well people vary on a case-by-case basis, at the biological level no less and all the more when it comes to creeds and ethics, even within a culture. So to say a people or a culture are all a certain way with no deviation is kinda foolish to me and doesn't stand up to logical inquiry when it comes to definition. Atheists are supposed to be champions of empirical evidence yet somehow I find that lacking in many of the suppositions you'll find in atheists dogma. It's more of a religion than you might have ever paused to acknowledge and I don't claim that to provoke anybody's sensibilities--given the definition I know, I recognize that the atheistic community fits the description and I ain't gonna deny that. I prefer to be equitable in the treatment of all parties that are subject to the debate.

You're asking questions but not returning any insight on your beliefs so I am starting to feel preachy so I'ma stay quiet as kept and politely excuse myself. This it not to be dismissive of anything with which you might reply. So don't take it that way...I'll respect your inputs but I just prolly won't reply any further.

You don't think Atheism is a religion and I do; I'm cool with that.
After all that hemming and hawing, you finally provide what you feel are the "strict" definitions of religion... and they don't fit atheism, as Batlord covered pretty fully.

I see you have some sort of gripe about people judging Christians or something but it's irrelevant to whether or not atheism is a religion. It isn't one, according to your own definitions. You can pretend it's one all want, and you pretend fish are hair dyers as well if you'd like, but what's the point?
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Old 12-19-2015, 06:17 PM   #499 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Janszoon View Post
After all that hemming and hawing, you finally provide what you feel are the "strict" definitions of religion... and they don't fit atheism, as Batlord covered pretty fully.

I see you have some sort of gripe about people judging Christians or something but it's irrelevant to whether or not atheism is a religion. It isn't one, according to your own definitions. You can pretend it's one all want, and you pretend fish are hair dyers as well if you'd like, but what's the point?
cool story, bro! Have your people call my people and we can set up another time for you to perform intolerant hypocrites on parade again...

hahaha, I'm just kidding. But seriously...

I took this from the source you referenced earlier. You can find it here:

Religion | Definition of Religion by Merriam-Webster

I'm clearly the one who is misunderstanding the idea of what a religion is.

Quote:
Examples of religion

Many people turn to religion for comfort in a time of crisis.

There are many religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism.

Shinto is a religion that is unique to Japan.

Hockey is a religion in Canada.

Politics are a religion to him.

Where I live, high school football is religion.

Food is religion in this house.
If you expect me to be the bigger man and not hold you accountable to your own standards of reason while you willfully walk in denial, just a fair warning--YOU'RE IN FOR A HUUUUGE DISAPPOINTMENT!!!

Wow, Food, you're a religion too? IS THERE ANYTHING YOU CAN'T DO?!

Again...their words--not mine.

No big deal tho, just a dictionary but who cares what a dictionary says around here?

You can even find "atheist" listed, alongside "unaffiliated" (which is what I think you intend when you describe an atheist), under "religion."
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...rint_2122.html

CIA world factbook is pretty authoritative, in my humble opinion.

There's another thing for you to dismiss.

Last edited by Hip-Hop Homework; 12-19-2015 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 12-19-2015, 06:35 PM   #500 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hip-Hop Homework View Post
cool story, bro! Have your people call my people and we can set up another time for you to perform d-bags on parade...

hahaha, I'm just kidding. But seriously...

I took this from the source you referenced earlier. You can find it here:

Religion | Definition of Religion by Merriam-Webster

I'm clearly the one who is misunderstanding the idea of what a religion is.

Quote:
Examples of religion

Many people turn to religion for comfort in a time of crisis.

There are many religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism.

Shinto is a religion that is unique to Japan.

Hockey is a religion in Canada.

Politics are a religion to him.

Where I live, high school football is religion.

Food is religion in this house.
If you expect me to be the bigger man and not hold you accountable to your own standards of reason while you willfully walk in denial, just a fair warning--YOU'RE IN FOR A HUUUUGE DISAPPOINTMENT!!!

Wow, Food, you're a religion too? IS THERE ANYTHING YOU CAN'T DO?!

Again...their words--not mine.

No big deal tho, just a dictionary but who cares what a dictionary says around here?
I thought you were going to "stay quiet as kept and politely excuse" yourself. Guess not.

Anyway, yes, when the word is used in that metaphorical way, it can be used to apply to anything, which means that usage is irrelevant to the subject of this thread. I just assumed you were smart enough to know that and weren't a troll. Guess I was wrong on one of those fronts.
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