Is it just me, or does heaven sound like a really horrible place?

boo boo · 09-16-2009, 03:59 AM

I just want to know what people think of the concept of heaven, no I don't want it to turn into a bash Christians fest, and I'm sorry if I seemed to start it off that way.

It's a pretty simple topic and I see no reason why it shouldn't be discussed other than a few self righteous dopes losing their sh*t every time someone has a debate about religion.

I'm sorry, but religion IS part of the title in this section right? I'm sorry, I assumed that meant religious topics could be discussed, easy mistake I guess.

Guybrush · 09-16-2009, 04:34 AM

The topic does have relevance because it's a religious topic and I guess many christian believers have to ask themselves wether or not they believe that heaven is something we can attempt to understand while alive here on earth or not. To some, that would be an important philosophical question. Even if you are certain heaven is completely unfathomable, the fact remains that some people have tried to describe what heaven is like and I don't think that should be above criticism.

I don't think this thread deals with it very tactfully. It's clearly biased from the start and it's more critique than an invitation to discussion. From that, it's obvious that some might get offended. If this thread gets closed, it will likely have something to do with that.

boo boo · 09-16-2009, 04:38 AM

I never EVER claim to be objective in the views that I express, but then again, so do a lot of people here, trying to be objective on a forum like this is both boring and pointless.

But I do encourage free discussion about this topic, I'm not attacking anyone for disagreeing with me, unless I feel they are trying to turn the discussion into a personal attack against me.

But anyway, I'll stay out of this for a while and just wait for what people have to say.

Guybrush · 09-16-2009, 04:43 AM

No, but it is possible to present a topic objectively first, then present your argument rather than present your stance on the matter first - then the topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boo boo

I mean think about it, the more you ask a Christian what heaven will be like, the more repulsive the very idea becomes.

That's the first line of the first post in this thread, you say you find the idea repulsive before you let us know what the idea is. If you want a discussion and not just people getting angry, that's not the best way to do it.

boo boo · 09-16-2009, 05:02 AM

Uh yeah, not getting people angry is by no means my strong point.

Guybrush · 09-16-2009, 05:24 AM

I would like to know where this description of heaven comes from. Growing up, I can't remember hearing anyone really describe heaven. The idea that you lose your memories and so on is all completely new to me.

Are there any "authorative" descriptions of heaven in the bible or is this all fantasized by believers?

Fruitonica · 09-16-2009, 06:37 AM

I've never really talked to a Christian about heaven, so unfortunately I can't be a pedantic dick, but I'll try. Apathetic about the concept as I am, I've always thought of heaven as less of a place than a state of complete spiritual wholeness, and I think you're criticism is from too prosaic a perspective and falls down in the face of such an idea.

Edit: And yeah, just out interest care to share where you got this idea of heaven?

~~The Unfan~~ · 09-16-2009, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

I would like to know where this description of heaven comes from. Growing up, I can't remember hearing anyone really describe heaven. The idea that you lose your memories and so on is all completely new to me.

Are there any "authorative" descriptions of heaven in the bible or is this all fantasized by believers?

Revelations 21 and 22 give some description of Heaven & Hell. Specifically, the part about forgetting memories of things which have past

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations 21:4

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

It doesn't explicitly say you will forget about loved ones who would have passed on and went to Hell. However it does seem to imply that either God makes you forget about them or God changes your opinion about them.

As for what Heaven looks like

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations 21:11-27

11 Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was [of] jasper: and the city [was] pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation [was] jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates [were] twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city [was] pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations 22:1-5

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Guybrush · 09-16-2009, 07:47 AM

Wow, that's quite informative. Thanks Unfan

So heaven is described as a shining city with streets paved with gold, all kinds of gems in the foundations and parts made out of glass. It's as width is the same as it's length and it's height so it sounds almost like it's cube-shaped.

The lengths are 12 000 furlongs and a furlong is supposedly about 200 meters. Then it would be ..

12000 * 200 = 2400000m / 1000 = 2400 kilometers in all directions.

Pretty impressive! 3 gates on each side doesn't sound so much when you take the scale into consideration.

anticipation · 09-16-2009, 07:50 AM

The early Christian heaven seems to have evolved out of the Israelites fear of a Greek or Mesopotamian afterlife. Greeks believed that everyone, regardless of morality or social stature, went to Hades together and spent eternity just sort of wandering around doing chores for Hades, while the Mesopotamians believed that the afterlife was like a "house of dust", where everything was sort of intangible and in darkness. Of course Christians decided that they weren't going to the same place after death as their enemies, or anyone who they deemed of low moral character. Thus the idea of Heaven was created, so that early Christians could rest easy knowing that anyone who disagreed with them was bound for sandy doom while they would be perched up above with their invisible giant in the sky.

09-16-2009, 04:34 AM	#12 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	The topic does have relevance because it's a religious topic and I guess many christian believers have to ask themselves wether or not they believe that heaven is something we can attempt to understand while alive here on earth or not. To some, that would be an important philosophical question. Even if you are certain heaven is completely unfathomable, the fact remains that some people have tried to describe what heaven is like and I don't think that should be above criticism. I don't think this thread deals with it very tactfully. It's clearly biased from the start and it's more critique than an invitation to discussion. From that, it's obvious that some might get offended. If this thread gets closed, it will likely have something to do with that. __________________ Something Completely Different

09-16-2009, 05:24 AM	#16 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	I would like to know where this description of heaven comes from. Growing up, I can't remember hearing anyone really describe heaven. The idea that you lose your memories and so on is all completely new to me. Are there any "authorative" descriptions of heaven in the bible or is this all fantasized by believers? __________________ Something Completely Different

09-16-2009, 07:47 AM	#19 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Wow, that's quite informative. Thanks Unfan So heaven is described as a shining city with streets paved with gold, all kinds of gems in the foundations and parts made out of glass. It's as width is the same as it's length and it's height so it sounds almost like it's cube-shaped. The lengths are 12 000 furlongs and a furlong is supposedly about 200 meters. Then it would be .. 12000 * 200 = 2400000m / 1000 = 2400 kilometers in all directions. Pretty impressive! 3 gates on each side doesn't sound so much when you take the scale into consideration. __________________ Something Completely Different

09-16-2009, 06:37 AM	#17 (permalink)
Fruitonica Pale and Wan Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aus Posts: 917	I've never really talked to a Christian about heaven, so unfortunately I can't be a pedantic dick, but I'll try. Apathetic about the concept as I am, I've always thought of heaven as less of a place than a state of complete spiritual wholeness, and I think you're criticism is from too prosaic a perspective and falls down in the face of such an idea. Edit: And yeah, just out interest care to share where you got this idea of heaven?

09-16-2009, 07:50 AM	#20 (permalink)
anticipation Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,565	The early Christian heaven seems to have evolved out of the Israelites fear of a Greek or Mesopotamian afterlife. Greeks believed that everyone, regardless of morality or social stature, went to Hades together and spent eternity just sort of wandering around doing chores for Hades, while the Mesopotamians believed that the afterlife was like a "house of dust", where everything was sort of intangible and in darkness. Of course Christians decided that they weren't going to the same place after death as their enemies, or anyone who they deemed of low moral character. Thus the idea of Heaven was created, so that early Christians could rest easy knowing that anyone who disagreed with them was bound for sandy doom while they would be perched up above with their invisible giant in the sky.