VEGANGELICA

Hey boo boo,

I see feminism as simply support for "political, economic, and social equality of the sexes" and organized activity on behalf of this goal. (feminism - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary).

Feminism does challenge assumptions about categories of people, especially when there is a long history of people being *forced* into those categories by social norms and governmental laws.

Ideally, feminism supports people, regardless of gender or sexual orientation, to be who *they* want to be (ultra-focused on fulfilling their culture's gender norms, or completely opposed to those norms) and do the jobs/life activities *they* want to do (stay-home dad, stay-home mom, working dad, working mom, etc.) without being constrained by unequal social burdens and laws.

I agree with you that anyone who is trying to make someone else feel shame about herself or himself is not supporting this ideal of equal opportunity. I feel that no one, whether male, female, transgender, etc., should be made to feel bad about who that person is or wants to be.

I am a feminist and as such there are many causes I support. For example, if men want to grow their hair long, women want to cut their hair short, etc., that is fine and what affects only their body should be their choice. Men are subjected to many unfair practices that I would like to see end: men are drafted while usually women are not (well, actually I oppose any draft but if there is one it shouldn't use gender as a method of discriminating); men are sometimes ridiculed if they want to stay home with the kids; men may be ridiculed if they have long hair; many boys, especially in the U.S., are forced to undergo genital cutting (circumcision) that destroys their foreskins, the most sensitive part of their erogenous external genitalia); men are told they shouldn't be passive, emotional, etc.

I am especially sensitive to women being encouraged to think of themselves primarily in sexual ways because historically in the U.S. women were confined to a subservient, sexual role (not allowed rights in marriage, not able to be divorced if they didn't have kids, not able to play sports because it would "hurt their reproductive systems," etc.). So, when I see a woman who is fitting herself in the stereotype of what "feminine" is, I always ask myself why she is doing this. Does she want to for positive reasons or because she is afraid and feels she *has* to? There is a big difference. Women who wear make-up sometimes actually feel uncomfortable without it on and don't want to go out in public, fearing people will think they are ugly, which I feel is very sad. Similarly, when I see men with short hair (which includes most men), I conclude many of them get their hair cut almost religiously every month because deep down they feel fear of non-conformity, which is ironic, because short hair is supposed to symbolize strength!

I don't view feminists as opposing people appreciating sexuality and attraction and differences among people, as long as those people are able to be who they want to be for positive reasons rather than negative reasons. There is still a lot of social pressure to be "feminine" or "masculine" (as typically defined within a culture) as opposed to "gender-neutral," and usually social pressure can be quite vicious and most people are afraid not to give in.

For example, I used to shave my body hair (legs, underarms) when I was in my early 20's, even though I hated shaving more and more: I didn't like the fact that people were telling me there was something wrong with my body and thus I was supposed to shave (whereas men weren't told to shave *their* legs and underarms); I didn't like the blood from nicks; I didn't like the prickly stubble on my legs when they touched in bed. So, when I was 25, I decided I'd had enough of this social norm that claims, illogically, that women are supposed to not have hair and thus should cut it off. Hmm...if women didn't naturally have hair, then there would be no *need* to shave most of their body!! So, I stopped shaving and for years have been the happy owner of all my body hair...and thanks to my genotype we are not talking a light fluff of down, here!

People occasionally ridicule me nastily in public when I wear shorts, with my (gasp) leg hair showing, but on the positive side violating a constrictive, social norm quickly shows you who your true friends are...people who like you for who you are. I often feel like a natural science specimen, such as when I go swimming and all the 12-year-old girls in the showers (going through their Miley Cyrus phase) stare at me and my hair with shock...they have never seen a fully natural woman before. Lifeguards cluster around and stare at me like I'm a baboon in a zoo. People are not used to seeing someone who is not afraid of social rejection and not afraid of her own body.

Boo boo, while the fight for human equality in social, economic, and political arenas has made great strides in many places in the last 150 years (because of much, much, much effort on the part of feminist women and feminist men), feminism is still very much needed in the world, especially since women in many cultures are still valued less than men (and given fewer opportunities, less education, less food, etc.).

I would say that one psychological issue I wrestle with, in all honesty...and perhaps this does relate to the feminism as you describe it...is that sometimes I *do* wish I could feel a protected, cherished, "Knight-on-White-Horse is going to defend me" kind of feeling, yet I find myself trying to fight that desire for many reasons: I feel it is important to be self-dependent; I feel I should not rely on others psychologically, because that is unfair to them. It is hard for me to admit emotional vulnerability. Though I think this may be true for many people, whether male or female, it is likely that my conflicting desire to be vulnerable and also *not* be vulnerable relates to my upbringing, which encouraged each person to be her own individual (a feminist belief).

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boo boo

Well until I can think of another term for bitter jabba the huts waging a war on feminity, feminists will have to do.

And now feminists are trying to do the same thing but with the roles reversed.

That's the key word. And how often do growing political movements fully live up to their original intentions? Yeah, that's what I thought.


Lol, I'm not debating with you there.

Again these are things I'm with you 100% on. I do find myself to be very disgusted with men who have ridiculously high standards for what women should be. Especially those who enforce their opinions on the matter, like that not only are women with short hair or tattoos or face piercings sexually undesirable, but it's also immoral and being a bad role model.

My only point is feminists do the same when they basically tell women to reject their feminity and be total c*nts to women that don't.

Yeah but men are held to a lot of social standards as well. And nobody complains when men sell their sexuality, or express it in a way that the other sex finds attractive.

Again I understand what you mean. Problem with a lot of feminists is they generalize about their gender and just assume that no woman on earth is naturally feminine (which is f*cking stupid and anti-scientific), that they cant possibly be comfortble with looking attractive and that they only do it because of what men want. I think this is false because I think people care just as much about how they think of their appearance as other people think of their appearance.

Either way, I find it hilarious that these idiots think the only thing keeping all women from being fat lesbians with buzzcuts is that the man is keeping them down.

Again, it's the Beth Ditto types that are the object of my rage. I think they just come up with their own idea of what EVERY woman truly wants, which apparrently is to be as horrifically fat and ugly as they are.

Ok, I'm clearly being a meanie here. But eh, I really f*cking hate people like that.

Sure. But we're more free to do what we want than we've ever been before. We should embrace diversity. But I feel that for some bitter women it's not enough, they want to get rid of everything men find more sexually desirable than they are.

Well I'm happy that you have the courage and confidence to do that.

Though I admit that hairy legs on a girl really grosses me out. But as long as I don't tell women to shave their legs, they shouldn't make me feel bad because I have different standards of beauty.

A running gag here is that I have a strange fetish for women with shaved heads. And I do hate the attitute people give me for it as well as how men treat those that go for the bald look.

"lulz it's britney spears. so umm.... are you a cancer patient, lesbo or nazi?"

What never made sense to me is, if women are expected to shave their legs, armpit hair and pubic regions why not their hair or eyebrows? Why is that such a taboo?

For me it's all about consistancy.

Well I used to have really long hair and thus people picked on me for that.

I admire that you do what you want with your body. But just like I don't tell men with short hair that they're materialistic slaves, I hope you don't do the same for women who shave their legs.

Everyone has their own standard of beauty. And while it's easy to assume that not all women are comfortable with having to shave their legs, I'm sure there's a lot who do prefer it. Because everyone likes to look a certain way, and not only because of what other people think. A lot of guys like to shave their beards and heads simply out of comfort, so I'm sure a lot of women shave their legs for the same reason.

I don't mind chicks with hairy pits for example. And while I find hairy legs on women to be unattractive that doesn't mean I'm oppressing women.

I really have a problem with so called anti-conformists who discreit anyone for having a popular opinion and not acknowledge that just because they're doing something popular doesn't mean they're not thinking for themselves.

That is true. But I think in the western world, modern feminism become another force of oppression. A lot of movements that started to liberate something or someone end up turning to fascism and bigotry, I see the feminist movement taking that route.

The point is, not all women are abrasive like that just as not all men aren't.

I think the more radical feminists are under the misguided impression that ALL women want to be GI Jane, that's my issue. And the fact is that the great majority of women are passive and vulnerable, and have been for ages. And because art reflects culture, it's stupid for feminists to rant about how the media depicts women as being passive and vulnerable when so many of them are, that's reflecting the culture, not enforcing it. And trying to completely erase men's ideal of female beauty and character from existance when we have the right to our ideals is not the way to do it.

Again, that's just how I feel. I feel that a lot of feminists only want to challenge these social norms because they want to create norms of their own. And a lot of them seem to go about it in a morally imperialistic way.

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