boo boo

So you want to get rid of cultural diversity?

Again I never said feminism didn't have a purpose, of course it did. What I'm saying is that there's nothing for feminist activists to do now other than to bitch over stupid sh*t and insult people who don't share their ideals.

Ok, so you're not batsh*t crazy, that's good to know.

I know, but it doesn't justify personally insulting women who do happen to fit that ideal.

Those are all values that ring true for most female leads in Disney films.

Agreed.

And again my problem is that radical feminists do to true feminist ideas what Fred Phelps does to true Christian ideals, they make a mockery of their cause and give it a bad reputation.

It doesn't bother me what the f*cking media does, and feminism is based on the idea that women only know how to do what other people tell them, and I know that's not true.

If a lot of women only want to f*ck A&F models, so what? As unrealistic as that may be, I'm not gonna force my pale hairy nerd ass down their throats because I don't meet their sexual preference.

The idea of feminism should be as basic as women doing whatever the hell they want (and fighting for the right to do it) and not give a damn, not force their ideals down our throats.

I'm talking about a specific attitude just like people talk about a specific attitude when it comes to fundamentalist christians.

It's pretty damn clear I don't think all feminists meet the profile of what I'm talking about. I'm pro diversity and my problem is feminists who contradict themselves.

That's a stupid argument, first off we all take our ideas and values from others, there's nothing wrong with that it's human nature. Also you could make the argument that women only want to make themselves unattractive for the same reason.

What people do or don't do is influenced by their upbringing, I'm aware of that. But while society shapes us to be a certain way, being driven to make yourself into the exact opposite of what society tells you to be and then tell other people that they should be like you and do the same is yet another form of comformity. Actually it's not "another form" at all, it's the same thing, yet at a primitive stage.

I don't hate her because she's ugly, I hate her because she's ugly and she crams it down peoples f*cking throats.

Just a little respect for other peoples ideals and preferences would be nice, if I find someone to be ugly, so what? I don't tell them they're ugly personally, so in return they shouldn't get naked in front of me, call me a sexist and expect me not to tell them what I think.

If people don't like something about you, ignore them, and that includes having the common courtesy not to rub it in their face. Women like Ditty who make a public event out of posing nude for a magazine and get pissed when people give their opinions are only demeaning themselves further.

In other words. A fat ugly woman getting naked in front of me knowing damn well it's gonna get a disgusted reaction is the equivalent of farting in someones face and then bitching at them for gagging.

__________________
It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

VeggieLover

Good, then we essentially agree with eachother on the big issues. Perhaps you should request another change in the title...rather than targeting feminism you should perhaps proceed to bitch and moan about all the ridiculous radicals and fundamentalists that want everyone to think and act just like them. Oh wait, thats the way the world will always be, people will be idiots! Ironically, thats exactly what I'm doing...wasting my time bitching and moaning about other peoples idiotic behaviors and ideas.
Setting that aside....

of course not. Where did you even get that idea? equal does not mean identical, thats the point. Besides, cultural identities are established based on isolation. Regardless, the more connected the world becomes, the less dramatic cultural differences will get, but that has nothing to do with this topic!

I have yet to meet a true feminist who does this. Granted, I haven't met a whole lot of people due to where I live and my age, and thats where our arguments kind of hit a wall. I think, if you took the time to actually get into a so called "radical feminist's" mind, you'd find that these women are speaking out on behalf of the women who DO feel opressed by the images you are fighting for. The women who are comfortable regardless are what the media says are beside the point, they are not the object.
However, I am convinced that your statement has some merit, and i sorely regret that your exposure to feminism has consisted of such individuals that cannot see the big picture and who are therefore mis-representing the cause.

True. Which is why i personally don't have anything against disney movies (i own probably every one that was made before DVDs became popular ) But i can also understand where they get kind of a bad rep. All the so called ugly people are also mean and evil. Therefore, the elementry conclusion reached is: "if i am pretty, i will be nice and well liked. if i am ugly, people will hate me"

well then for goodness sakes make your case around that specifically rather than condeming the entire movement. You say its clear that your problem is with the radicals, but you consistantly use the word feminism independantly of any mention of these radicals. You aren't being as clear as you think you are, and we can't read your mind, fortunatly

Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean that it isn't an important issue. All people (regardless of gender) are (potentially) highly influenced by the media. There are endless other factors that contribute to eating disorders and other image-obsessive behavior, but the media is an easily targetable, population catering, genre with a lot more wrong with it than "pretty girls"

Thanks, i really appreciate it, calling ppl and their arguments stupid really helps you sound intelligent. Of course its human nature to take our ideas from others! thats my point! We just live in a time where its incrediblly difficult to build a good self image/morals/etc. amoung the constant stream of images and advertisments that is being thrust upon us day in and day out. We could just turn off the TV, but media, if used correctly, could be a tremendous power for good (or at least moral nuetrality). Women can think and act for themselfs, as you said, THUS feminism! However, we are all so used to the negative images we see that we form opinions and biases without even realising it. The point (regarding the media) is to reinstitute a pattern of thought. You interview my fellow highschoolers, and you will be appalled at the level if inactivity that exists in their minds.

either you live in a completely different level of logic than the rest of us, or you totally contradict urself here. If people don't like something about you, ignore them and do whatever the hell you want. Ok, thats consistant. Then you say, "oh, but while your at it, make sure your pleasing all the di.cks in the world who think your an ugly bitch." You don't have to look at her, im pretty sure she doesn't come into your bedroom at night and "fart in your face." if she's comfortable with getting naked for a bunch of cameras, then good for her, the good thing about media is that you CAN turn it off or put it down or whatever. we who have the discretion to do so.. should (and should then proceed to improve it so that we dont have to) But there is this thing called freedom of the press, and we aren't ever going to achieve a pure little media that anyone and everyone can and should watch without extreme censorship (which, i think you will agree, is not desirable). If you dont like looking, then don't go seeking out the pictures.
Personally, I think her behavior stems from a very deep low self-esteem, but what do i know.

__________________
"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

Wayfarer

Wow. You do realize that people don't exactly have exhaustive control over their appearances, yeah?

How in the blue hell would the establishment of a classless society entail ridding ourselves of cultural diversity?

Yes, because throughout the entire world, women are treated, without exception, as equals, and nothing less, right?

Nyesus, just because some friend of your mommy's is now, thanks to the feminist movement, able to earn over $60,000 a year doesn't necessarily mean that women throughout the "third world" are being treated as equals. To claim that there's "nothing left for feminist activists to do" is just bloody ridiculous and almost cheerfully ignorant.

Forgive me for traipsing a bit off-topic here, but had you actually read the Bible (which, in light of this quote of yours, I'm left to assume that you haven't), you'd be well-aware that the Westboro Baptist Church absolutely represents the ideals of "true" Christians. "Fundamentalist", or "literalist" Christianity is, in effect, the only "true" Christianity, when one considers that, if left open to personal interpretation, the Bible can be construed as an authorization of just about anything, thus rendering "Christianity" meaningless. The simple act of reading the Bible and having your perspective on life mildly reformed makes you about as much a "Christian" as the simple act of reading Nineteen Eighty-Four and having my perspective on life mildly reformed makes me an Orwellist.

Were she attractive (in your eyes), but behaved in precisely the same manner, would you be doing this much complaining about it? Also, how exactly is she "cramming it down people's fucking throats"? By appearing on magazine covers? By appearing on stage in skimpy outfits? She's not "cramming" her apparent unattractiveness down our throats any more than a myriad of blonde Hollywood actresses are shoving their apparent attractiveness down our throats. It appears, to me, at least, that you do, in fact, hate her because she's "ugly".

And all of this after you spend a night ripping on Christopher Hitchens for being a supposed "sexist jerk".

VeggieLover

Hooray for Wayfarer!!!!!!!!!

__________________
"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you."

Neapolitan

Forgive me for traipsing a bit off-topic here, Are you pulling his chain? Are you kidding? I took a quick look at "The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC)" on wiki and I couldn't believe what I was reading, not one good thing WBC had to say about any of the other Christian denominations. I think they are well passed extremist's veiw point on anything. I wouldn't call them Christian, nor would I say they have an ideal of Christianity.

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boo boo

I've already made it clear that I'm only talking about western society here.

I'm not an idiot, I know women in many areas of the world are treated like crap. What I'm saying is, that in American culture it's become nothing more than a liability for both men and women. I applaud feminists who are making a difference around the world or at least try to. But there's a lot of so called feminists in this country, who instead of actually concerning themselves with real problems, choose to bitch about Playboy and Disney movies instead.

And thus instead of contributing to real feminist causes they just make a mockery out of it.

First, I'm not gonna let this turn into another debate about Christianity.

Second, yeah, that's why I don't like Beth Ditto. As she's clearly a wonderful person.

If I rip on someone for being ugly it's somebody I clearly have a personal dislike of to begin with. Isn't that the case for most people? Why yes, it is.

But women of course can never be naturally feminine, it's only because we tell them to be, otherwise they'd all look like KD Lang.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

VEGANGELICA

VeggieLover,
You expressed yourself beautifully in your post (and I'm not just saying that because we both love vegetables). When the media present a certain view of women (or of men) as ideal, then this not only reflects culture but also shapes culture, and often seems to result in people feeling bad about their bodies, which helps no one (except those who produce a myriad of beauty products and get rich off of human insecurities).

I do feel it is important that public policy encourages an understanding of health so that all people, whether heavyset or thin, can know steps to take (no pun intended) to improve their health, but like you I don't want anyone to be ridiculed for her or his body.

Hehe, boo boo, so you must like Sinaed! (YouTube - nothing compares). I thought I recalled reading somewhere else about your affinity for bald women. Bald is beautiful!

People's opinions about bodies are affected not only by genetics but culture, obviously, and that is as it is and I am okay with it. For example, evolutionary biologists might say one reason you prefer women without leg hair is this makes them look more youthful, and there is an evolutionary advantage (higher potential for more offspring) if a male procreates with a younger female. When someone's appearance becomes the main characteristic that others think of when dealing with that person, though, that concerns me, especially if they treat a person disrespectfully because of her or his appearance.

A lot of your concern seems to revolve around your feeling that you are being told to find all women attractive. I do feel it is understandable that you, like all of us, have your own preferences for beauty and I certainly support you in finding people you feel are attractive. After growing up in a society where women shave, I don't know if even *I* would classify my leg hair as "attractive"...I see it as more just being there and a pleasant reminder that I am a mammal. In my case, I see intellect and non-conformity as attractive (I picked my mate in large part for his beautiful brain), so if I see a man with longer hair I look at him longer and with more interest. I actually think that people appreciating each other for physical as well as personality characteristics is a very healthy and important part of society...attraction and flirting are a nice social glue that bonds people together.

I can understand you not liking moral imperialism. One gripe I have as a feminist is the U.S. version of Sharia laws for women: men can be in public topless, but women get arrested if they have their shirts off. This is an example of sexual oppression (the laws were put in place mainly by men, and I suspect many women are raised to see their breast nudity as "lewd"). I would like to create a different norm: one that results in people wanting laws for women and men to be the same.

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Barnard17

Well, yes if you only read the Old Testament. If you read any of the New Testament it largely contradicts a lot of this, starts talking about turning the other cheek and is generally a lot more passive. Fundamentally being a Christian (not that I am one) is about accepting Christ into your life, accepting you're not perfect, trying to lead a good life and asking for Christ and God to forgive your trespasses. You can get hung up on the Old Testament but to do so largely involves ignoring the entirety of the New Testament which is the defining section that turns Judaism into Christianity.

Of course if you'd much rather troll in ignorance and tell people to kill their children and dwarfs you'd be better suited going to a forum discussing Christianity where you can upset people who will passionately give a damn. Or you could actually read the book yourself cover to cover and learn something of what you're talking about instead of hammering in dated clichés.

YouTube - The Chaser's War on Everything: Do you Believe the Bible is True?

The media is beginning to change and improve. It now ridicules anorexic celebs nearly as frequently as fat ones (Renée Zellweger, Amy Winehouse, Mischa Barton, Madonna), referencing British media as that's my experience of it. There are also TV programmes nowadays dedicated to stripping off the obscene amounts of fake tan and push up bras and replacing them with a more naturally feminine look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpVKjbU3F2M

Fundamentally disagree. The obese and anorexics have eaten (or under eaten) themselves to a point where their own health is at (major) risk, their ability to reproduce is significantly damaged and their appearance is obscene and offensive. Don't get me wrong I would far, far rather a slightly overweight lass in preference to an underweight lass but when you've eaten to the point of such gluttony that you look like Beth Ditto, your cankles don't ... really ... stop ..., your back aches from all the unnatural levels of weight it's supporting and your rolls of fat are vast enough to home a leper colony you really, really should be ashamed and society is doing you a disservice if it isn't reaffirming the fact that if you don't get on an exercise bike you're going to die.

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Wayfarer

I'm don't doubt that this swindle's worked wonders for you in the past; unfortunately for you, some people out there are well-aware of the myriad bigotries and cruelties found even in the New Testament. Let's start with Romans 1.

1:18-20: The "wrath of God" is upon all unbelievers and they are "without excuse".
1:21: The hearts of unbelievers are "dark" and "foolish".
1:26-28: Paul castigates homosexuals.
1:31-32: Homosexuals are "worthy of death".

And how about, let's say...the Gospel of Luke (I'm picking at random here, it's not as though these kinds of bigotries and cruelties are hard to come by in the New Testament)

3:9: Those who do not bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down and cast into the fire."
11:23: Jesus says, "he who is not with me is against me."
12:10: Those who blaspheme against the holy ghost will never be forgiven.
12:46-47: Jesus likens God to a slave-owner that beats his slaves "with many stripes."
13:23:30: Jesus says that only a few will be saved, and the rest will burn eternally in hell, where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Now, how about...1 Peter? Sure, why not?

1:2: We have no say in whether we are saved or damned. We are predestined to one or the other and this was ascertained by "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."

Actually, before digging too deeply into 1 Peter, let's have a gawk at this unforgettable gem from 2 Peter:

3:7: God will set the Earth aflame so as to burn all "ungodly men" to death.

Shall I go on, no?

Wayfarer

I'd say I'm opposed to feminism as a movement simply because it's essentially petty-bourgeois identity politics.