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08-21-2009, 01:46 PM | #12 (permalink) | |||
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Feminism doesn't fight the media simply because it portrays "pretty," thin, large busted women, because yes, these women do exist and should be allowed -- nay, encouraged-- to feel pretty. The problem arises when these women are ALL thats shown in the media. When they are presented as the ONLY ideal of beauty. How many little girls have grown up watching the mentioned Disney movies, how many have been trained to want as their most powerful attribute a tall, thin, big eyed body in order to attract prince charming! These things aren't bad, but when they are held higher in esteem than good conversation, knowledge, humanity, and friendship, they can harbor unhealthy implications. Eating disorders plague millions of girls and women (and yes, men too!), and this in the same world in which millions starve to death! Being thin and fit is NOT bad, its just been elevated to a position it never should have reached. We as people need to start putting forth ideals more balanced, rearrange our priorities, and then the media will reflect that. Quote:
You are oppressing feminists in the same way that you argue they oppress the rest of women and men. Not all feminists (indeed, not even the majority!) strive to catagorize women into "GI janes." Infact, that incredible generalization is exactly what the ideals of feminism are agianst. People are radically different from eachother, whether they are male or female, and whenever we try and put large groups of people into little boxes based on the actions of a few radicals, well thats what we should all try and fight. Also, you say women should dress/act sexy if they want to. The question is... would they want to if the media and our society handled sexuality and attractive-ness differently? Would you be so attracted to the thin large-breasted women if you hadn't been raised to do so? Personally it offends me that the photo of Beth Ditto is such a big deal. Larger women (and men) shouldn't have any more reason to be ashamed of their bodies than anyone else. We're all human!
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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you." |
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08-21-2009, 02:12 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
Existential Egoist
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"We're all human" isn't a good excuse. |
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08-21-2009, 02:17 PM | #14 (permalink) |
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Would they still answer that way if the ideal woman wasn't stick thin? We really have no way of knowing. Of course there is a point when being too heavy becomes unhealthy, but until that point, there is absolutely no rational reason to be ashamed. Why isn't it a good "excuse"?
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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you." |
08-21-2009, 02:27 PM | #15 (permalink) | ||||||||||
Dr. Prunk
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And again my problem is that radical feminists do to true feminist ideas what Fred Phelps does to true Christian ideals, they make a mockery of their cause and give it a bad reputation. Quote:
If a lot of women only want to f*ck A&F models, so what? As unrealistic as that may be, I'm not gonna force my pale hairy nerd ass down their throats because I don't meet their sexual preference. The idea of feminism should be as basic as women doing whatever the hell they want (and fighting for the right to do it) and not give a damn, not force their ideals down our throats. Quote:
It's pretty damn clear I don't think all feminists meet the profile of what I'm talking about. I'm pro diversity and my problem is feminists who contradict themselves. Quote:
What people do or don't do is influenced by their upbringing, I'm aware of that. But while society shapes us to be a certain way, being driven to make yourself into the exact opposite of what society tells you to be and then tell other people that they should be like you and do the same is yet another form of comformity. Actually it's not "another form" at all, it's the same thing, yet at a primitive stage. Quote:
Just a little respect for other peoples ideals and preferences would be nice, if I find someone to be ugly, so what? I don't tell them they're ugly personally, so in return they shouldn't get naked in front of me, call me a sexist and expect me not to tell them what I think. If people don't like something about you, ignore them, and that includes having the common courtesy not to rub it in their face. Women like Ditty who make a public event out of posing nude for a magazine and get pissed when people give their opinions are only demeaning themselves further. In other words. A fat ugly woman getting naked in front of me knowing damn well it's gonna get a disgusted reaction is the equivalent of farting in someones face and then bitching at them for gagging. |
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08-21-2009, 02:32 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
Dr. Prunk
Join Date: Jun 2005
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And while I encourage diversity I don't encourage bad self esteem (ok ok, I'm obviously not the poster child for good self image but whatever). I also don't understand how if a woman likes to be fit or put on makeup that automatically means she has bad self esteem. Isn't it possible that they just have some self confidence and actually like the way they look? |
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08-21-2009, 02:47 PM | #17 (permalink) | |||
Facilitator
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You expressed yourself beautifully in your post (and I'm not just saying that because we both love vegetables). When the media present a certain view of women (or of men) as ideal, then this not only reflects culture but also shapes culture, and often seems to result in people feeling bad about their bodies, which helps no one (except those who produce a myriad of beauty products and get rich off of human insecurities). I do feel it is important that public policy encourages an understanding of health so that all people, whether heavyset or thin, can know steps to take (no pun intended) to improve their health, but like you I don't want anyone to be ridiculed for her or his body. Quote:
People's opinions about bodies are affected not only by genetics but culture, obviously, and that is as it is and I am okay with it. For example, evolutionary biologists might say one reason you prefer women without leg hair is this makes them look more youthful, and there is an evolutionary advantage (higher potential for more offspring) if a male procreates with a younger female. When someone's appearance becomes the main characteristic that others think of when dealing with that person, though, that concerns me, especially if they treat a person disrespectfully because of her or his appearance. A lot of your concern seems to revolve around your feeling that you are being told to find all women attractive. I do feel it is understandable that you, like all of us, have your own preferences for beauty and I certainly support you in finding people you feel are attractive. After growing up in a society where women shave, I don't know if even *I* would classify my leg hair as "attractive"...I see it as more just being there and a pleasant reminder that I am a mammal. In my case, I see intellect and non-conformity as attractive (I picked my mate in large part for his beautiful brain), so if I see a man with longer hair I look at him longer and with more interest. I actually think that people appreciating each other for physical as well as personality characteristics is a very healthy and important part of society...attraction and flirting are a nice social glue that bonds people together. I can understand you not liking moral imperialism. One gripe I have as a feminist is the U.S. version of Sharia laws for women: men can be in public topless, but women get arrested if they have their shirts off. This is an example of sexual oppression (the laws were put in place mainly by men, and I suspect many women are raised to see their breast nudity as "lewd"). I would like to create a different norm: one that results in people wanting laws for women and men to be the same.
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Last edited by VEGANGELICA; 08-21-2009 at 03:00 PM. |
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08-21-2009, 03:11 PM | #18 (permalink) | |||||||
Music?! Lets boogie!
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Good, then we essentially agree with eachother on the big issues. Perhaps you should request another change in the title...rather than targeting feminism you should perhaps proceed to bitch and moan about all the ridiculous radicals and fundamentalists that want everyone to think and act just like them. Oh wait, thats the way the world will always be, people will be idiots! Ironically, thats exactly what I'm doing...wasting my time bitching and moaning about other peoples idiotic behaviors and ideas.
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However, I am convinced that your statement has some merit, and i sorely regret that your exposure to feminism has consisted of such individuals that cannot see the big picture and who are therefore mis-representing the cause. Quote:
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Personally, I think her behavior stems from a very deep low self-esteem, but what do i know.
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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you." |
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08-21-2009, 03:12 PM | #19 (permalink) |
Dr. Prunk
Join Date: Jun 2005
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My main argument has as much to do about behavior as it does appearance if not more so.
Which is what seems to be a war between radical feminism (which is what Schizo calls the second wave, I guess) and feminity itself, and people who find value in it. And I might add, there's a difference between "challenging" our perception of feminity and just plain sh*tting on it. While I condone newer generations to find their own voice, I don't think that justifies being a d*ck to people simply because they value the older tradition. I mean, I can't say that everything I find attractive fits with what society finds attractive either. |
08-21-2009, 03:15 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
Music?! Lets boogie!
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"Not remotely! Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you." |
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