My point wasn't to refute your point. My point was what I observe from people (no one specific at MB) that they believe the Medieval Ages were a break in continuity between the ancient world and the modern world (with it scientific and techonlogical advancements.) They believe science is the answer to life and point back to the ancient world, and marvel at there technological developements (sometime they mention the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.)

The wonders of the world were created with reason. They didn't build the pyramids without having some logical base, such as mathematics. They might have said that God was their divine inspiration, but in the doing it was reasoning and logic.

sure. most people also refuse to recognize the continuity between alchemy and modern science. a lot of people also adopt a lot of ideas that don't come from the bible but instead from biblical interpreters without taking the time to go and read all of the bible or st augustine. my personal belief is that without spirituality humanity gets lost and self-destructive, but also that most religions are historico-situational interpretations of the same spirituality, and hence should be updated as mankind finds itself in new situations.

When ancient Egyptians built the pyramids they didn't have a Judeo-Christian concept of God. Their inspiration was the immortality of their kings and queens. The knowledge and techonology that the ancients Egyptians possessed was mix with esoteric knowledge. It isn't the same as today for example where numerology and mathematics are two seperate things.

his cd box set IS my bible

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...GL._SS500_.jpg

:bowdown:

I disagree with you. Because God touches peoples lives in way you don't understand. Before I had faith in God I was a completely different person and travelled down a destructive path in life. One day turned that around when I physically felt him and knew he was real. Now I am one of the most successful people from my high school class.

Oh and there is many many examples of people who have had a destructive life of drug and alcohol abuse and have had a life changing moment completely reversing their bad habits and making their life far more meaningful.

"This Is It" is the first example of psychedelic music on record that I know of.

Alan's musings and ramblings are sheer genius - but still one man's thoughts.

The Bible is a collection of several individuals' thoughts in the case of the Old Testament, largely superceded by other individuals' thoughts in the New Testament decades, if not centuries after the event, and in some cases, overseen by the Roman authorities. Many gospels were stashed away and not included in the "original" - some of which were written at the time and therefore considerably more accurate as "eye witness accounts", which none of the New Testament gospels are. You could say that they're not exactly gospel truth...

There were originally somewhere around 80 gospels. The ones chosen reflected the Romans view - it was, after all, the Romans that finanaced the Bible.

Puts it into perspective really - but God is undeniable. Science cannot prove He does not exist.

But the Bible is just a book that the Beatles successfully replaced in the 1960s.

It fuelled centuries of bloody wars, horrible torture and tyranny, not to mention greed and self-promotion at the literal expense of others.

How can you justify killing in the context of "Thou shalt not kill"?

The Bible is a bad book with some good messages in it. It requires people to be selective in their approach in the right way. But how can you learn the right way from a book written the wrong way? Especially when most people are NOT selective, as we are not taught how to be consciously selective.


er... anyway... yes. Alan Watts = Genius.

How did you know he was real? I think my main problem with your explanation is that you give God the credit for cleaning up your act. However, did God force you to act that way? No. You cleaned up your act because you chose to. You recognized your freedom to change your life and you changed it by your will. You didn't need God to do that. You needed self-esteem and self-realization.

Secondly, telling me that "God touches people in ways your wouldn't understand" isn't a good argument. From that sentence you even assume I can't understand it. Why bring it to the conversation?

Their life may be more meaningful in the eyes of a Christian. However, giving God the credit for your actions deprives your life of meaning in itself. You choose to sacrifice the search for meaning by negating your mind. You haven't found it. You chose to recognize meaning in God. Is it really any more meaningful than selfish happiness?

There was no reason for me to change my attitude. It happened within an instant. I didn't want to change my ways but that day I realised I needed to from the overwhelming feeling I've got.

Because unless you feel God's touch, you won't understand, and you've just confirmed that.

I give God credit for providing the opportunity for me to be successful and make the most of the opportunities he provides. I have perfectly good self esteem thank you. Selfish happiness doesn't necessarily mean you are going to devote your self to others and live beyond your own wants and needs.

There were reasons to change your attitude. Looking back on the event you say it was better for you to change it. There is a reason to change your attitude. Whether you recognized it or not at the time has nothing to do with its actual existence.

I won't understand. Kind of like how you will never understand my garden gnome god who actually killed yours 10,000 years ago. You will never be able to understand so don't even try arguing against him. He exists, but I have no way of explaining that to you. So, I guess you will suffer from his divine wrath.

You do not have perfectly good self-esteem if you need someone else to control your actions. You view God's will above your own. God, a being you can't prove exists, could tell you to kill millions of innocent children. However terrifying that sounds, you must comply because his will comes before your own. That is your morality. God says so.

Also, for the record there is no such thing as selfless happiness and I fully endorse selfishness.

All right I think we've all heard this before, let's stick to Alan Watts pleez.

You can't know for sure if it did or didn't exist, I just happen to know from my own self reflection.

Don't assume to know me, you DO NOT know my self esteem levels. That is your opinion if you think that I need to be controlled by God, however, that is completely wrong. God can not physically control us, merely spiritually guide us.

I'm not in any way trying to prove to you that he exists, I am only stating the way he has touched my life. I don't understand why you are trying to tell me I'm living a sham when it doesn't affect you in the slightest.

If you fully endorse selfishness then good for you, I am proud to be someone who thinks of others other than myself at times, religious or not. Do you know your point of existence on this earth?

Finished that and now I know why I haven't been allowed to know who I am.
I've just moved on to this one..

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/03...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

I don't have a problem with Christianity or Theism, I'm not a member of any religion but I believe in a higher power. Still, I do take issue with several kids my age stressing over college not because their worried about what there doing with their lives, but whether or not God "wants" them to do that. Using religion as a crutch to avoid making decisions, and than saying God told you when they finally do is a blemish on human society. We weren't put on Earth and supposedly given freewill by God to live our lives according to his every whim. Are we really simple playthings in God's play he created out of boredom?

I'm sorry... wait... teeheehee that's funny

This part diverges on a topic of class today, of the metaphysical process, wonder, reflection, and articulation.

"In the type of metaphysical or mystical experience which we
are discussing, this feeling of wonder—which has all kinds of
depths and subtleties—is one of two major components. The
other is a feeling of liberation (the Hindu Moksha) which attends
the realization that an immense amount of human activity is di-
rected to the solution of unreal and purely fantastic prob-
lems—to the attainment of goals which we do not actually desire."

I just laughed pretty hard at that.

So I read his collection of essays about spiritual experiences..
http://createpositivechange.org/wp-c...0394719047.jpg

And after reading three of his books I decided to read his autobiography..
http://www.newworldlibrary.com/Porta...arge/15847.jpg

And now I learn that the man died relatively young due mainly to chronic alcoholism. Interesting.

there is something interesting about the alcoholism, despite his carefree demeanor you can sense an underlying current of despair in his writing. which makes him all the more endearing to me, the sort of "life is a game everything is jolly" pseudo-spiritual attitude really bugs me sometime, you only get to the life is a game stage when you realize that trying to make life more than a game leads to despair...

Yea - Watts was a product of his time for sure. Wise and contermplative as he was, he was still stuck in a certain time and place. In his case the place was in the body if a person with a talent for social skills and for earning money with his words and physical presence. It was also in mid-century America which is now so far away that Watts' gripes with the world seem practically ancient. In other words, the jolliness was pretty much expected by someone like him..and he was all but encouraged to completely forget about any real-life responsibilities. It's was a perfect scenario for him to become a functioning drunk with good connections and to live happily ever after.

True, and Watts certainly knew this - it's what justified his 'sensualism' I think. Did he stay drunk because he was too entrenched in his own personal history and Westernization to admit that life is a game?

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You: I love you
You: Nice headphones too
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You: Was that what you said in that funny language there?
Stranger: It is :)
You: That's awesome
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You: Well, I'm a black screen ghost spreading love amongst the world of Omegle
Stranger: I like all colors ;)
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Stranger: RED
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You: Even the lack of them (black), because it still has aesthetic value
You: Woooaaaaahhhh
You: Is that an orange man sitting on a toilet?
Stranger: Holding tape and a pencil!
You: That's pretty cool
You: So what's that say on your shirt?
You: I like it on top
You: Oh mountains
You: I've never climbed moutanins before, being a black screen and all
You: In fact, I've never experienced exposure to sunlight and oxygen either
Stranger: Sad life :(
You: What's it like?
Stranger: You don't need to know, baby. For you have obviously felt love.
Stranger: And that is all that you need to feel.
You: Awwww that's cute
You: You winked at me :D
Stranger: I like to wink
You: I haven't winked in a long, long time
You: Being a black screen and all
Stranger: Only during power surges, yeah? :/
You: Hell yeah
You: I love power surges
Stranger: So, who is the man or woman behind this black screen?
You: Well, in my past human life, I was an 18 year old male
Stranger: What happened? :'(
You: Then, according to black screen scripture, I was re-born, destined to live a life of spreading love as a black screen on this chat site.
You: I was re-born.
Stranger: Will we all be re-born as you have?
You: I don't know
You: All I know is how to spread love
Stranger: Like I said. T'is all you need.
You: True that,
You: *tips hat*
You: So, what's up in your life?
Stranger: Searching for love in organic beings :/
You: Yeah, I used to do that as a human
Stranger: It's not easy.
You: It sure ain't.
Stranger: Just got done with a break up :/
You: : (
You: Sorry about that man
Stranger: C'est la vie.
You: What's that mean?
Stranger: French for: That's life.
You: Ahh, I see.
You: Us black screens can only speak English right now
You: Other languages come in the next patch.
Stranger: Has there ever been a nude patch?
You: I don't know, I would assume if the market demands it, it would be released.
You: But probably as DLC, so they can make more money.
You: The whole black screen thing has become pretty commercialized over the last few years
You: Sigh... I still try to do my job though.
Stranger: It's no longer about the experience anymore.
Stranger: Just all about money.
You: Yeah, unfortunately.
Stranger: We all just get caught in the rat race sometimes I guess.
You: Yeah, when the excessive desire for money and material goods actually inhibbits true happiness and self-actualization.
Stranger: I mean if money helps make you happy, go for it. But I don't think people realize that money ALONE won't make them happy.
You: Money doesn't make life happy, it makes life easier.
You: But having an easy life isn't always happy
You: Without purpose or meaning, it's pointless
You: And it's the challenges and the endless search for truth in the world
You: That really makes life grand
Stranger: The achievement of life, to me, can only be reached by completing ones goals.
You: That's cool then. Pursue things how you wish.
You: Everybody has different aspirations.
Stranger: Exactly. Not everything will make the same people happy.
You: Although I think the basic, core psychological and phsyical needs are the same for all people
You: But it's the path they take to get to meet those needs that differs.
Stranger: Very interesting point.
You: Congratulations
You: You have gone the longest without rejecting the black screen.
You: Setting a new record
Stranger: That's a prize in itself :)
You: Yeah brah
You: Most people just disconnect after I declare my love for them, I don't know why
You: It's almost like they are scared of love
Stranger: It's sad. Isn't it?
You: Or just wanted to have cam sex, instead of love.
Stranger: I prefer cam love.
You: Hell yeah, that's the real ****
Stranger: We should all just love love.
You: Yeah, that would be rad
You: Although there are tons of social and biological obstacles for our species to achieve something like that. Many think it's impossible. But that's the absurdity of it I guess, because most of us keep trying.
You: Although most of us get distraction by things like, money, pretty often as well.
Stranger: World peace may not be reachable. But we could all do our best to love more than we hate.
You: There will always be conflict, because that is part of the nature of the world. If everything was all good all of the time, life would be boring.
Stranger: Would have nothing to look forward too, you're right.
You: There's this Alan Watts quote
You: Here we are
You: "Let's suppose that you were able every night to dream any dream that you wanted to dream, and that you could, for example, have the power within one night to dream 75 years of dreams, or any length of time you wanted to have. And you would, naturally as you began on this adventure of dreams, you would fufill all your wishes. You would have every kind of pleasure you could concieve. And after several nights, of 75 years of total pleasure each, you would say "Well, that was pretty great. But now let's have a surprise. Let's have a dream which isn't under control. Where something is gonna happen to me that I don't know what it's gonna be." And you would dig that and come out of that and say "Wow, that was a close shave, wasn't it?". And then you would get more and more adventurous, and you would make further and further out gambles as to what you would dream. And finally, you would dream where you are now. You would dream the dream of living the life that you are actually living today"
You: It's also in this song
You: YouTube - Giraffes? Giraffes! - "I Am S/h(im)e[r] As You Am S/h(im)e[r]..." [Studio Version]
You: Good band
You: They threw his speech in the middle of the song, pretty fitting in my opinion. He has a nice voice.
Stranger: I must listen.
You: It's a pretty long song though, quite epic
Stranger: Well, mate. This has been enlightening. I hope you spread love like this to all of Omegle.
You: Thank you
Stranger: And now, I must bid you Adieu
You: Good bye then
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You: again*
Stranger: One could only hope.
Stranger: Goodbye, black screen.
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Damn cardboard didn't know you liked Watts.
How do you figure? His insight into the fundamentally Christian worldview of our supposedly post-Christian western world is still spot on.

I'm not talking about religious fundamentals. I'm talking about day to day reality which Watts claimed is the only thing that truly matters. Of course Watts formed a rational argument against Fundamental Christianity and obviously many others caught on at the same time and also many since.

The thing that seems outdated to me is Watts' mid-century behavior in relation to that of how someone with similar views today would be viewed by today's world society.

He was a Western intellectual living freely and drunkenly on the money of those who sorta worshiped him because he had a nice voice and appearance and they felt that he was saying something true (which he was).

Really all I mean is that Watts capitalized on the general concerns of his time and he happened to be relatively unique as a Westerner in the 1950s saying the things that he did. Today reality is different and I don't believe that he would have been able to live his lifestyle (i.e. however the **** he wanted) as easily today. I actually hope not.

I'm not talking about religous fundamentals either, I just think his criticisms of western culture as having a fundamentally Christian worldview is as applicable to today as it was 50 years ago.

Sure, I guess.