sleepy jack

I don't see what's so bad about wealth redistribution.

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Son of JayJamJah

I can only tell you why I don't like it.

My whole life I've paid the taxes, the more I make the more I pay (higher percentage) and I get almost nothing back for my money. I've called the police or EMS a total of 2 times in my life, there are pot holes all over the roads I drive on, I have to have the city shine a light up my ass every time I want to build something or modify something on my property, never used unemployment, welfare or any other government program. And I don't like or support most of the spending our government passes.

The idea of income redistribution is the foundation of communism and socialism and the United States and all that doesn't exactly work.

Why do you think it's okay for a government to decide how the money you earn should be spent?

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sleepy jack

First off I'd point out that saying income redistribution doesn't work is a bit silly if you're saying that from a global perspective. If you are Capitalism hasn't work out so well (particularly now for the United States) in comparison to countries operating under socialistic governments (e.g. Norway, Sweden.) If you mean just in the United States well I think that's when things get incredibly complex because you have to deal with tax policy switching under every administration, congress session, and so on. I think it has a lot to do with that inconsistency and then the problems that arise from the economic system which the United States is under - it's largely a problem of the rich's inherent advantages of the poor in the society; which they completely have. There isn't much actual redistribution in the United States. The upper class do enjoy the fruits of society far more than the lower class and most money goes to entitlements or other irresponsible spending/borrowing/wars/etc.

Anyway assuming were examining socialism from a moral perspective. My central political philosophy is in democracy and I don't believe democracy can't exist under a capitalist system. This is because democracy is, by definition, society being under popular control. Capitalism however is society being under control of those with the most fiscal power. You can see this in lobbyists and the dominance with which corporations have over elections and both parties. In a free market it becomes very easy for monopolies, oligarchies and so on to form and when they exist they became the central power as opposed to the people (this is the way it is in the United States. I don't remember the figures off the top of my head but the wealthiest in the United States control over ninety percent of the wealth. That just doesn't work. Someone in FDR's administration has this great analogy between that and some game. The gist of what was a country can't work when all the cards are in the hands of a few or maybe it was all the chess pieces. I can't remember exactly how it went.)

In addition to that I believe in economic justice. Martin Luther King once said if there's injustice anywhere then there's justice nowhere (or something to that effect) and I think that when the working class is being pissed on by the rich of a state then no one is really living in a fair society.

Now to go back specifically to how my money should be spent. I don't really believe in property (this applies to money, music, and so on.) John Locke's notion that there is such things as "property rights" always struck me as absurd because it really does interfere with everyone's rights around you and I've never understood how you can own something (other then yourself obviously, and again this, again, has to do with someone else owning you or using you would go against your own rights. The classical Liberal philosophy that your freedom ends where another person's begins is as central to Democracy to me.) I've never seen any real intellectual justification for why I should be able to own this and you can't. It contradicts my own values. I don't think property has any right, I guess I'm like the first nations in that sense.

That being said, I think the laissez-faire idea itself (ignoring the property aspect) that you and only you should be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor is flawed on the basis that it wasn't only you who sowed the seeds - there were others and the notion that only one individual should reap those seeds when it takes a community to maintain the field is just fundamentally wrong.

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Son of JayJamJah

I'm not saying income redistribution can't work, I'm saying it's not the fairest method or one i have any faith in. Any system can work if the people buy into it.

While I find your perspective admirable in a way; I don't share any of these ideals or beliefs.

My family came here with nothing and built a life for me and my siblings that has allowed us to flourish. While the playing field is certainly slanted in favor of the wealthy to the poor, it's far from insurmountable. A strong work ethic, good decision making and an education or acquisition of a skill is all I believe anyone needs to be successful in the United States.

My philosophy is personal accountability and personal freedom of choice. I should be allowed to do whatever I want as long as it does not interfere with someone else's ability to be free.

That's the first flaw I find with your system, while it's humane and kind to want to help everyone, I'd rather be more selective as i feel like some people do not want or are not worthy of being helped.

Most of all though I believe strongly that giving someone a handout is the worst thing you can do. It robs them of motivation and accomplishment. To me it be like taking away my humanity.

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Me, Myself and I United as One

If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

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Hesher

I love when people agree with me. It inflates my ego even further. I'm basically a zeppelin of self-worth.

TheBig3

The Hindenburg perhaps?

Wealth distribution makes astronauts as well paid as grave diggers as I understand it.

The rammifications would be horrific.

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anticipation

i don't quite understand what's so horrific about that scenario, since astronauts do basically nothing all day and contribute absolutely nothing to society, while grave diggers provide a very needed service.

i suppose the grave diggers would get angry?
or the astronauts?

Guybrush

I think this is a bit black and white .. Norway is considered a socialist country, but it doesn't mean everybody makes the same. It just means people who make more are taxed more and people who make less are taxed less. Also the private sector has less influence in areas like education and health care. There's still the possibility of climbing up some career ladder to get better pay, but there's less difference between winners and losers in society.

Maybe winners don't need palaces, huge gardens and the most expensive private jets and maybe the losers don't need to go starving without any kind of health care.

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crash_override

It looks good on paper, but I would like to see how the human greed factor plays into this. I don't think humans would be able to execute this plan. Basic emotions prevent it (greed, jealousy, hate, love). The only thing you would do by trying to change the system is piss a different group of people off.

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Guybrush

As I wrote earlier, the system works just fine here and there's not really much to complain about at all.

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