Inuzuka Skysword

The only economic system we currently have that respects the individual's pursuit of his own happiness is capitalism. That is why I like it.

When you take away property rights the individual cannot see the most objective value of his work. In other words, the output of man's work is screwed around with to the point where man doesn't know his work's worth. That is not good for the individual.

Property rights and personal responsibility go hand in hand. When society says that everyone must rely on everyone else it is lying. It is telling you a false statement about humanity. The fact that we have free will is undeniable. We cannot escape our responsibility for ourselves. The society that takes away property rights attempts to, but it will never work. It will never get to the point where a man does not have to fend for himself.

Lastly, I view any attempt to distribute the wealth as materialist. The idea that one cannot succeed in a capitalist economy is false. That is because succeeding in life has nothing to do with money. Might it make life easier with money? Maybe. Will it help one achieve happiness. Never.

P.S. I know I am jumping in at a horrible time.

CAPTAIN CAVEMAN

so you hunted and gathered your own food, taught yourself, made clothes for yourself and built your own computer?

in the society we live in we all rely on one another whether we like it or not

Son of JayJamJah

You're completely over thinking it. His point ( I think) is more along the lines of the concept of avoiding playing to the lowest common denominator. It's nothing more then applied societal natural selection.

A society should take things\goods\people that are useful and work with them without being forced to work around those people and things that can not pull their own weight.

You see what I mean?

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Inuzuka Skysword

What I mean is that we are responsible for out own choices and such. We are ultimately responsible for creating our character and achieving what we achieve. Our life is what we are worth.

Socialism does not believe this. I mean socialism as in the absence of private property. Socialism teaches that we all are determined by one another.

The truth is, that generally speaking the Determinism vs. Free Will argument doesn't necessarily have an answer. What do you choose to believe though? Would you choose the idea that gives you self-esteem and worth? Would you choose the idea where no one is responsible for who they are. Determinism is not a healthy belief.

What does it mean to own? This is what I mean by socialism being driven by materialism. You see happiness in the property itself. You see it in what I have. If I have something that you want, you would see me having it and not letting you have it as an infringement on your happiness.

It is not the property that brings happiness. It is the pursuit itself. It is the work that it takes to achieve it. It is found in the passion and drive to succeed.

People in the "lower class" can still earn, work, and put passion into there work. How do you think people were able to live in such a place as a concentration camp? They found something meaningful to do. They found a meaningful task. Viktor Frankl studied the people in the camp.

Now by no means am I saying that the concentration camp was a good place. People were brutally murdered and such. However, people aren't brutally murdered in capitalism if the law is enforced. If the right to life is protected, one can find happiness whether poor or rich. As long as he may see the fruit of his work afterward, the work itself is where one finds his happiness.

If you refer to a sweat shop as people working against there will then I am completely against that. If someone agrees to work then the responsibility for that choice is forever found in them. Also, you cannot blame the amount of sweatshops today on the free market. The price for work in some places is artificially high, which necessitates that in some places it will be artificially low.

sleepy jack

What gives you a right to property?

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Inuzuka Skysword

What gives you a right to anything? The fact that we all need property rights to pursue our own happiness is what gives us the right. Ultimately nothing gives anything rights. The government protects "rights," so that might relate to the question your asking. There are no "human rights" or any of that stuff. Where do they come from?

What is rational in the pursuit of man's own happiness is what makes it a right. It all starts with the base right, that man may have a right to his own life. If that right is crossed, then no one on either side will experience happiness. It is a social contract.

So all "rights" stem from this right to life. Anything that infringes on man living his own life is not a right. Of course, there is a hierarchy. There are some things that we consider rights that infringe on other so called "rights." Some rights are more important than others. That is why one needs a hierarchy.

sleepy jack

But you owning property infringes on my right to own property and therefore my own pursuit of happiness no? So doesn't that mean property rights are something only attainable to the people on a certain level of that hierarchy and up? Which would mean that they're better than those below - creating classes. Which means that those with, the upper class, can oppress those without, the lower class. How can the lower class pursue their own happiness then when the upper class has created monopolies, slave wages, and given them the whole laissez-faire package?

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Son of JayJamJah

No, you too can own property and even his if you having something he views as equal value to the property you wish to acquire. I can say for a fact, I'd never have worked as hard as I did throughout my life without the incentive of owning property and goods to make my families life easier.

RE: Marxism\Socialism

I appreciate but do not share your perspective, I agree with Inuzuka Sksword in his assessment of the capitalism as leaving the most available for individual subjective pursuit of happiness. You and I both have the choice to own property or not, drive a vehicle or not, save or spend money, invest or hoard.

The basis of my philosophy is simple too. The more options you allow to a collective society the more people you will satisfy.

The more people that are satisfied the more that are working productivity and too their potential, the more of those you get the better society you have.

There are flaws surely but I can't imagine anyone could be unselfishly opposed to a system alloting the most options for the most people.

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Me, Myself and I United as One

If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

My Van Morrison Discography Thread

sleepy jack

All that operates under the assumption that I have the means to own property. In a capitalist society there's always going to be an oppressed under class who can't own property and don't have the means to "pursue happiness" which is subjective; even though you guys seem to be arguing it's objective and requires the right to own wealth and property (but somehow socialism is the materialistic philosophy?)

The problem is capitalism doesn't allow the most options for most people. It provides a state of welfare for the elite and the lower classes are stuck in a society where they have to play by the rules of said elite. Capitalism requires for the institutions of society to be under the control of the few, the ones with the most wealth. Capitalism is inherently fascist.

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mr dave

this is relative to the individual and how they want to handle their money and their perception of happiness.

the idea that we live in a society with 'slave wages' seems to be perpetuated by whiny kids (regardless of physical age) who want to measure their worth against their neighbors rather than against themselves and who generally act like they're entitled to an active social life as a basic human right. (yes, this is a huge generalization)

just because someone works a job doesn't mean they're entitled to a house in the burbs with a nice car in the driveway. they need to step up in their work for it, and if they can't manage to keep an apartment running then how the hell do they honestly expect to be able to keep a house running?

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