Health Care Legislation to cost $1 trillion
 

Which includes $600 billion in tax increases.

House Health-Care Proposal Adds $600 Billion in Taxes (Update1) - Bloomberg.com

So you guys excited for the change in the way we handle healthcare? I sure am.

How come?

How come I'm excited? I'm not at all...that was completely sarcastic.

I know it was smartass, I'm asking for elaboration.

Well, the original plan had "cap and trade" fees that charged to the industry to pay for this.

The fact that it no way only costs $1 trillion.

The fact that once enacted there is pretty much no way out of it.

etc, etc, etc

My family will be happy to have health care now. So yeah, it's a start I guess. More changes to come hopefully.

Health care in my country has gone down the toilet. People that can't afford private care have to wait 1-2 years to get operations because the government won't put proper amounts of money into increasing the quality and quantity of staff in hospitals. The big CEO's sit around with their huge paychecks and don't allocate money how it should be allocated.

It's very similar in Canada, long waiting lists if you need something more serious, however at the same time it does have it's advantages. Last year when I had a fractured foot, I had about a dozen x-rays taken over the three month period and they didn't cost me one penny upfront. My mom who was living in The United States at the same time had bronchitis and had to get her chest x-rayed and I believe it cost her about 200 dollars or so. That said socialized medicine is not without it's problems. Canada struggles with theirs and they've got a population of 30 million, where as the United States has 300 million. That's a fair more amount of people who will need medical help. I think whether you like it or not, health care will become socialized within the next five years in America, I just hope that when it does, it doesn't follow suit with places like Canada and New Zealand with large waiting lists and sub par hospital conditions.

Well your welcome....I'm glad me and mine pays for it.

Thanks?

You also pay my check, so I guess I owe you a thanks for that too.

....you'd be surprised by how many hard working people(just like your family) who can't afford healthcare.(like my family, if health care wasn't socialized in my country)....so you can cram a sock in it. I'm glad to see some compassion finally shown towards other human beings.

....was that "me"(you) for all those years, or was it more likely your parents?Some people aren't fortunate enough to have well-off mommies and daddies.

No maybe not, but all those people who worked extra hard to earn there money (and also started with nothing) now must pay more in taxes. My entire family went from nothing to something do to sheer hard work, regardless of the huge loans and many hours worked.

Maybe one day you can be glad you're helping fellow human beings have a decent quality of life, too.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.



But yes please to more complex taxes....means my job is all the more important.

I read that article and I'm pretty sure they didn't say anything about more taxes are going to have to be paid by the individuals for this new plan. They are cutting corners to pay for it so that middle class workers don't have to pay more in taxes for it.

I am just so confused by people who like socialized health care, I'd be embarrassed to except it, it's pathetic really that someone should be forced to give their earnings for someone else to receive health care.

Personal accountability For the Win as you kids say.

It doesn't matter what they "say". Socialized health care will inevitably cause everyone's taxes to increase substantially at one point or another.

There is no better way to put it than this. Is it my responsibility to look after a nation with my paycheck?... No.

tl;dr

lmao please tell me you thin i'm quoting the declaration of independence to argue for a trillion dollar+ nationalized healthcare

[blanet statement not aimed at anyone]
It's amazing to me that a lot of the people that were so mad about government wiretaps and how that information could be misused, etc, are comfortable with the thought of this. Wiretap info could be misused, but no chance in hell if they have all the info on their medical history [alcohol abuse, drug usage, mental health] won't be misused at all. :tramp:

Throw on top the budget deficit last year was ~$480 billion. We are already projected to have ~$1.8 trillion this year. GREAT time to enact this.

Why are you whining about that? you have been doing it forever already though and plus you usually get it back anyways. They are just temporarily borrowing it.

Socialization of healthcare is the only answer. That or the total abolition of the health insurance industry. Let's make hospitals and doctors compete with each other just like every other type of business has too.

....whether health care is public or private, records of your medical history still exist...and the government could just easily spy on one as the other.
There's also this thing called "doctor-patient" confidentiality, that still exists in countries with public health care

....nobodies forcing you to use a public system. I'm glad it will be available to people who can't afford private health care though.

.....what if while trying to go from something to nothing, one of your family members was struck with cancer,multiple sclerosis, or something equally as horrible? What if they were at the point where they hadn't earned enough to afford decent health care?....or they had to pay so much in health care costs that they were put even further into poverty.

....to alejo: the tens of millions of people without health insurance could give less than a shit about how learned you are in the constitution.

....how is health care any less important as a public service than education, or the police or firemen?

The asshat has it. If you think you shouldn't need to support other people by contributing to health care then you don't need a police force, firemen, an army, you don't need a government, prison system, etc. whatnot. Go live in somewhere lawless. Subsidized health care is just an extension of other services we all put in for to assure the society runs smoothly. And hey, even if you are paying higher taxes, you don't have to pay insurance premiums anymore, so either way you're still paying. Think of it as gaining the constant convenience of not having to budget for unexpected health problems rather than losing the independence of choosing your own insurance plan.

I live in Canada and have very little to complain about with socialized health care. I'm just now healing from a broken ankle which I haven't paid a cent for aside from my leg cast ($100 because I wanted the nice one). The surgeon is a really affable guy and has helped me along with the entire recovery. I waited a couple miserable days before and after surgery but there was nothing more money could have done to improve the situation. I think not having socialized health care is essentially nothing short of barbarism.

I've got to run to wor so I'll respond to the rest later, but really hard to tae your point seriously when you can't tell the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Greeeaaaattt education.

....no I'm not too knowledgable about either. My point is that it's irelevant to what we were talking about....unless you're trying to imply that healthcare is being imposed by a tyrannical government...how dare they make you pay more in taxes so that some people can be treated in a humane way.

...just about every other time the government has shown a little compassion towards poorer folks there's been outrage and cries of "opression" by the richer folks...the 8 hour work day, minimum wage, stopping child labour, etc.

...what's really absurd is that health care is considered a privilege for people who have worked hard enough to afford it.You still live in a society with other people, and there is no way in hell that you'd be able to enjoy a higher standing of living without these people.

...my point is still valid, even though I worded it wrong.We're not living in the 18th century, you should be trying to argue why it isn't a good idea now. Capitalism wouldn't be able to sustain itself without making some concessions to social welfare. If we had stayed the course of 19th century "laissez-faire" societies, we'd probably all be communists by now.

They want the poor folks to stay in that status and get no advantages in life whatsoever until they stop being poor on their own merits. That is exactly why the gap between the upper class and the lower class continues to grow wider and further apart.

To be fair, those aren't the same thing. Police and all are social goods, things that wouldn't be produced in a complete laissez-fair market. Healthcare isn't a public good, people would pay for that stuff themselves as long as they could afford it.

Bull****. In a complete laissez-faire market there would be private security, private firemen, etc. etc. They actually used to have firemen who you had to sign up for and basically pay protection money to to assure they would put your house out if it was on fire. Society just decided that those things are vital for everyone, not just the rich, so essentially we socialized them. For some idiotic reason the United States hasn't gotten there with healthcare yet, even though with their propensity for gun ownership you'd think they'd have abolished the police and let citizens enforce everything. :bringit:

Yeah, firemen and cops were there for the rich. That's the point. You're forgetting about the drop-in-the-bucket problem. Think about National Defense. In a free market there is no incentive for you to pay for your share. The defense as a whole is such a giant thing, that your small contribution will go unnoticed. However, it's not something that you can give to only the people that pay for it. Everyone enjoys its benifits regardless of what they chipped in. It's the same thing with firemen. They wont go stand by a house while it's burning just to make sure the fire doesn't get out of hand and spread to buildings that paid for fire protection. Everyone enjoys it's benifits so it wouldn't hurt not to pay for it. That's why there has to be a tax, to make sure everyone contributes. In healthcare, it's easy to exclude the people that don't pay. You need treatment, you pay. This example is exclusive, therefore not a social good.

I'm with you and all. I'm just helping you out because some people like to argue by shooting down moot points of your diatribe, making you look like 'you don't know what you're talking about,' instead of talking about the overall problem.

Great idea. Abolish an entire industry in the middle of an economic downturn with unemployment already much higher than expected.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...-Brilliant.jpg

The timing of this is my biggest argument against it. Makes absolutely zero sense to do this right now. Throw that on top of all campaign stating there would be no tax on health benefits given to employees and he's already reneged on that stating he's giving it a thought.

The 'pubs in Congress are about as devoid of good leadership as the Democrats [who have Pelosi and Reid!], which leads to the Dems going about this completely the wrong way and the 'pubs drawing the wrong lines in the sand.

Throw in the fact that there isn't even a proposal for this...just his good ole "call for change" that will lead us to another inept "stimulus" bill on steroids. The fact that he supports a single payer system is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard of.

I have little to no doubt that there will be major change to healthcare. I'd be willing to bet it fails. We have leaders right now that have a penchant for throwing the government into things it knows nothing about. This idea is a great one in theory but not practical.

Are you saying Obama is a reneger?

:dagger

Moreover though...our lawmakers have been notoriously bad at projecting program costs and there is actually no reason for them to be accurate. They have no skin in the game for what may happen 20 years from now. Paint a blue-sky, rosy scenario and collect your pension when you retire. The government's previous record in administering matters such as these should give you pause [cause we all see the great shape social security is in].

I see what you're trying to say, and I appreciate how nice you are about it considering I called your post bull****. National Defense is a better example of that, but I still think Police and Firemen could also be a private business. There is no reason the Police can't enforce the law on some people and not on others (like corrupt Police or security guards) or protect some people and not others. The fact that Police are out there arresting lawbreakers is only because they are paid by the government and not by individuals (unless they're corrupt). It's also possible for firemen to wet down the houses on either side of the burning house, and I've read accounts of them doing exactly that back when you had to pay for fire protection.

Even ignoring the point of helping others by contributing to their health care, isn't the whole point of it to make it affordable? On a purely selfish basis, you are getting the same level of care as they are for what is likely a better price than what you had or didn't have under private insurance. I don't think we should outlaw private practice or anything like that, but an appropriate level of minimum care is necessary in my opinion. That's why I support welfare, government pension, all that sort of thing and why I live in Canada.

It remains to be seen what plan is the best and whether the government will even be able to pull off a socialized health program in the States; Alejo's point is well taken. I think it's a step in the right direction though and high on the list of homeland priorities that Obama should be focusing on in lieu of saber wielding in other countries.

one last thing...something similar to what the Dutch have with a tiered approach would be my ideal system. I'm still not sure it'd be possible here in the US but if anything it has the best chance.

Blasphemy

:d

Don't you find anything unsettling about for-profit law enforcement? They're should only be as many cops as are absolutely necessary. Certain things like police and corrections shouldn't be for-profit. If your trying to expand your business what incentive do you have to stop crime?What incentive do you have not to put more people in jail for increasingly minor infractions.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Police, firemen, etc. are all public services that our governments have decided to socialize in order to provide them to everyone, and health care, in my opinion, should be like that. I find for-profit or private government industries pretty unsettling, for sure. I actually wrote a paper for Sociology this year about how the for-profit prison system in California is supported by things like mandatory minimums that are essentially nothing more than political grandstanding. Private ownership of what should be public, not-for-profit corporations is totally the wrong way to go. We agree, dude. :yeah:

....ha,I can't interpret sarcasm,....anyways, I read up on how the private prison sector was a strong supporter of the three strikes legislation, and the "war on drugs" and all that jazz.