Don't Ask Don't Tell
 

Oh hey I'm President Obama. I said I would reppeal Don't Ask Don't Tell and even campaigned on that promise - you know the one that it was absurd to deny talented men and woman the right to serve their country. Forget all that though. Right now I'd rather let the Bush administration get away with murder and pretend certain atrocities never happened while a talented and much needed translator is fired for a biological condition which impairs his work in no conceivable way. YES WE CAN!

Yea, it sucks that homosexuals aren't allowed to be open about it while serving in the military, and eventually I believe the general outlook towards homosexuality will change enough to affect the military's stance on it (and maybe Obama will do something with that Military Readiness Enhancement Act), but as of right now, if gay Americans want to serve their country, they just have to keep their superiors out of the know regarding their sexual orientation.
It's probably the least demanding thing when compared to the other crap the military throws at its members.

Also, it's a nice loophole to have, the whole thing...
If someone wants out of the military, all they have to do is provide some compelling evidence that they're homosexual, and they can get out without a negative discharge. Anyone can use it, but I'd say that homosexuals have the upper hand when it comes down to providing proof.

Yeah you're right. Outright discrimination is nice; I love the freedom they have in the military. You can't be open about something you can control but you can tell everyone you're fighting Muslims for God.

Who in the military says they're fighting Muslims for God?

Dude.

http://www.burningcross.net/inquisit...s/crusades.jpg

I see what you're saying, but as with a lot of other things humans aren't getting right, it's going to take some time before we see a non-discriminating military.
At least there's somewhat of a middle-ground that allows homosexuals to serve in the military at all, albeit under a requirement to not be one's self.
But in that context, and I can tell you from experience, the military is the LAST place you'll ever be able to express any individuality whether it's sexual in nature or not.
I don't agree with the sexual part, but as far as everything else, it just wouldn't be a very effective military if it wasn't strictly controlled.

"We hunt people for Jesus.... That's what we do." | Slog | The Stranger

This isn't even something that's new. There's a deliberate attempt by evangelicals to create "military missionaries" and they've passed out more than bibles; there was one instance where they passed out comics of Muhammad burning in hell. They do all this in full US military uniform. One side of this war already is convinced this is a cosmic war and a crusade. We don't need guys in Jesus jerseys to vindicate this ideology. It's counterproductive.

That's not the point. Obama said he was going to abolish this pointless policy and he's already said he's staying out of this situation. I don't want to hear "oh that's just election talk" if he's going to claim to be the left's white knight he needs to stop talking about it and start acting it.

The individualistic argument strikes me as silly - you're allowed to be openly heterosexual but not openly homosexual? How is one more individualistic than the other? Because it isn't the societal norm? It's absurd to treat it like they're both anything more than biological conditions which can't and shouldn't be hidden and shunned in the corner based on what certain facets of society deem as "moral" or immoral."

Dan Choi Explains 'Why I Cannot Stay Quiet' - ABC News

There's more than that; it's not a simple case of keeping "I'm gay" quiet. As Choi points out you have to hide the fact you have a boyfriend, whereas heterosexuals can be as open as they want about their wives and girlfriends. It isn't fair in the slightest and Obama's pussying out shouldn't be excused.

Gays shouldn't be in the military because they can't fight. They're weak. What are they gonna do, bejewel their camo?

Or braid all them bearded arabs.

I know many *** men (and butch women) that would tear you up. I also knew many *** folk in the military that were getting kicked out after an attempt to represent a rainbow belt buckle or reasons alike. Do you do much fighting?

I'm pretty sure he was joking.

slash making a point about stereotyping huge groups of people.

I hope your point is that stereotyping is lol.

How dare you say something negative about Obama. He's infalible! GOBAMA GOBAMA GOBAMA- woahh, why am I chanting? I feel like the studio audience in Requiem for a Dream.

Ok real shit, this whole thing is pissing me off.
I had been trying hard to treat Obama with the same level of decadance I always treat politicians with. He made it a little easier with the whole weed thing. Now with this and the whole not releasing pictures thing, it's more than easy.
How the hell do you straight up lie to everyone like that? He literally said this rule was idiotic and outdated, now he's enforcing it? Eat a dick, homie.

Wasn't the main problem with gays serving in the military that their comrades might feel uncomfortable around them and such a distraction wouldn't be acceptable in a combat situation? For instance, someone is shooting at you and but you have to keep your back to the wall because that gay might stick a dick up your ass if you're not careful...:|

Homosexuality is gay.

Regardless of whether you're joking or not, that's the main reason for the whole policy. Unit cohesion is pretty highly valued by military leadership, and I'm sure that fact had a lot to do with it.

Yeah I know, I just think it's a little hypocritical considering black people were allowed to serve at a time when racism was state sanctioned. There's probably still racists serving in the military but you don't see racially segregated units out there do you?

This.

Meaning you support the ban?

No, I'm really indifferent on it. I can see both sides and the reasoning behind both. It doesn't anger that it's still there, but if it was repealed I probably wouldn't care either.

The majority of the Seal guys I'm fairly close with would rather it stay, though. And their reasoning was similar to what VF pointed out but in more detail.

I hear ya.
We're still fucking up as a country when it comes down to hypocrisy. We can target a lot of things that need changing, and the homosexual policy in the U.S. military is definitely one of them.
Eventually we're going to get it right.
I hope sooner rather than later.

cool, i watched the daily show last night too ethan.

So you basically don't care about state sanctioned homophobia. Kewlt.

Is it height discrimination that if you are over a certain height you can't join the Air Force? Sometimes traits that happen at birth and you can do nothing about inhibit you to do a certain job, or inhibit upon others to do their job.

If the people that are actually out there doing the job tell me that it would cause a difference in the job they do, then I'm fine with how it is. And I don't get the whole race discrimination point, the armed forces were segregated for quite some time.

And now they're not. Still don't see my point here?

Incidentally, I wouldn't mind hearing those more detailed explanations from actual service men on why gays shouldn't serve in the army.

I'm in Iraq right now. I've known a pretty good number of *** guys in the service.
Pretty much what happens is everyone on our level knows, they just can't "officially" bring it to light to the higher ups. Everyone gets along. So as far as cohesion goes, that's not the real reason. It's image.

Right, and to your point it too quite some time to desegregate after they became full rights protected citizens. So wouldn't it be safe to assume that it's going to take some time before ***s get the same rights in the military?

I try to talk with my seal buddies tonight, but most of the time they're a bit hammered by the time I get to the oceanfront so I'm not sure I'll get the best responses.

Took more time? Military was far more progressive than the rest of the country when it came to desegrigation. The units were desegrigated, as well as enlisted clubs and hang out spots years before the rest of the country did it. This is all fresh in my head because we got visited by five of the orignal Tuskegee Airmen a couple weeks ago.

The funny thing about that is in bootcamp in the Navy at least you shower together with 80 plus men. I dont see how one could feel much more uncomfortable than that.

That simply wasn't the case as Bane rightfully noted. You can google it yourself.

There's no need, we have an actual man serving in Iraq right now saying he gets along with his gay comrades just fine and that it doesn't affect the cohesion of their unit(s). It's highly probable your buddies' reasoning won't amount to much more than homophobia.

Had your government pandered to the prejudices of its servicemen, you would still have segregation in the military. The fact is that sexual orientation plays no part in your ability to serve your country. What's problematic here is your blasé attitude towards the blatant and shameful discrimination of your fellow citizens.

what bootcamp were you in? There wasn't enough room in the shower for 80 plus men. more like ten at max.

I had one flamboyant gay roommate while in the Navy but you know how the stereotype goes that the guys in the Navy are gay, well I tended to find more gays in the Marines and Army


Oh come on, everyone needs to get off Obama's nuts....yeah he promised to do things but that stuff isn't going to happen over night....he has more pressing issues to attend to first

Ship 14, Great Lakes. I think we actually split it in half and did 40 plus at a time, Port and Stbd. We had a double shower and a separate single one. The double could fit about 10-12 at a time, but the other 30 guys stood around the inner walls of the shower waiting their turn. We were only authorized to use the single on Sunday (Holiday Routine) and we could shower alone. Alot of the guys hid in the head stalls to avoid showering with everyone and would only shower on sunday.

Segregation in the armed forces lasted through WWII. It was segregated for quite some time. But believe whatever you want. Everything involving desegregation in this country has been slow, what tends you to believe this should happen so fast? I'm not saying it's right, but I'm saying it might be the best for all parties involved to occur with minimal incidents.

And the fact is that sexual orientation does play a part in the ability of others to serve their country, coming straight from the mouth of some people that serve it. And no offense, but I'm sure cohesion in the Seals is a bit more needed than someone enlisted.

I hope you dont speak of the entire enlisted field. Even though, I still dont see how someones sexuality effects the workplace whatsoever. Its two thousand fucking nine.

Considers himself lucky he lives in a country that isn't closeminded and bigotted to f uck.

Oh, are you sure?
Speak on what you know, man, not what you feel like is.

I'm using what I've been told, seeing as though I've got quite friends that are both enlisted and special ops. I've grown up around the military since I was born. I live on the biggest naval station in the world. I'd say I'm more than able to speak on what I know, but I appreciate the advice.

It's not meant as a diss to anyone in the services as I'm not sure there's a more honorable duty to partake in.

SEAL's and special ops are enlisted, so I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.