Should US Legalize Marijuana?

**Janszoon** · 11-02-2010, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I agree, but I fail to see how it's relevant to my post. The point I wanted to make was that in a modern society such a England, Norway or the US, you and your health affects other people. If you wanna be an island, go live on one.

And I was making the point that the laws you seem to support also don't exist in a vacuum. They too cost money and impact society in a negative way.

Guybrush · 11-02-2010, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

And I was making the point that the laws you seem to support also don't exist in a vacuum. They too cost money and impact society in a negative way.

I already wrote a couple of posts ago that I'm currently on the fence on this thing. I just think the argument that "it's not the government's business what I put in my body" stinks, whether dealing with cannabis, heroin or sugar.

I have perhaps a bad habit of replying against arguments that I don't think make sense, even if I'm not necessarily against the larger picture they promote. The legalization arguments so far in this thread have often been based on egocentric wants, personal observations, health myths and the idea that the legality of something which is bad for us (like alcohol) should automatically justify the inclusion of something else which is bad for us.

The argument that the war on cannabis costs money is the only intelligent pro-legalization argument I can remember anyone make in this thread at the moment.

**Janszoon** · 11-02-2010, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I already wrote a couple of posts ago that I'm currently on the fence on this thing. I just think the argument that "it's not the government's business what I put in my body" stinks, whether dealing with cannabis, heroin or sugar.

I think then that you and I are coming at this from two fundamentally and irreconcilably different perspectives. In my view one should be free to do whatever one wants unless in infringes on the freedoms of others. Any law that takes away personal freedoms better have one hell of a good justification for doing so and "it's unhealthy" just doesn't cut the mustard for me.

Guybrush · 11-02-2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I think then that you and I are coming at this from two fundamentally and irreconcilably different perspectives. In my view one should be free to do whatever one wants unless in infringes on the freedoms of others. Any law that takes away personal freedoms better have one hell of a good justification for doing so and "it's unhealthy" just doesn't cut the mustard for me.

Then I think you're right in that we think fundamentally different. I believe the way to improve the lives of people in a society is to improve the society they live in. Although it's impossible to know beforehand, if giving up a personal freedom will make the overall quality of life go up in a society, then I think giving up that freedom may be justified.

I accept that in society, I won't be completely free to do whatever and I'm fine with that. I'd take happiness and less personal freedoms over freedom and misery any day. Freedoms we give up are usually freedoms we can do without, not things that are crucial to our quality of life.

**Janszoon** · 11-02-2010, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Then I think you're right in that we think fundamentally different. I believe the way to improve the lives of people in a society is to improve the society they live in. Although it's impossible to know beforehand, if giving up a personal freedom will make the overall quality of life go up in a society, then I think giving up that freedom may be justified.

I accept that in society, I won't be completely free to do whatever and I'm fine with that. I'd take happiness and less personal freedoms over freedom and misery any day. Freedoms we give up are usually freedoms we can do without, not things that are crucial to our quality of life.

On the bolded part we agree. And I feel that having prisons filled to the rafters with people convicted of victimless drug offenses has a negative impact on society not a positive one.

LoathsomePete · 11-02-2010, 01:54 PM

Speaking from the law enforcement side, most cops don't really care about low end drug users like pretty much all of us. Some cops might act like busting some teens smoking pot is the crime of the century, but that is mostly for show. What cops dislike about drugs is the violence that inevitably follows it. Where there is drugs you will find drug violence and or property crime. While violence and property crime mostly manifests to higher tiers of drugs, but when even with pot the violence exists. I also don't really believe that legalizing drugs will lower the violence at all because the dealers will be hanging onto whatever they can hang onto. It would be like if Wal-Mart was coming to town and the town's small business owners took it upon themselves to kill the Wal-Mart store manager and employees. I know I'm extrapolating a little bit, but I know for a fact that a lot of pot dealers here in Nevada are shitting themselves today waiting for the ballots to be counted up in California. If drugs and drug dealers had a better reputation in the public's trust then I think the idea of legalizing drugs would be more favorable.

A slightly naive look, but it does contain some truth.

Guybrush · 11-02-2010, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

On the bolded part we agree. And I feel that having prisons filled to the rafters with people convicted of victimless drug offenses has a negative impact on society not a positive one.

I agree with that. I just think it's (for me) so hard to grasp the full scope of consequences legalization would have in the US. Is it a given that it would reduce crime? If nothing changes except it's turned legal, then crime should go down. If private companies are going to grow it and the government is going to tax it in an effort to control it, then the crime today could simply turn into black market crime instead. Under such a system, if the amount of cannabis consumers increases, then so could black market crime. That's not a prediction, just one of many possibilities for the future.

The reason I'm currently on the fence is that I don't really know what legalization would entail. The effect it will have on crime is one of the things I don't know, but there are plenty of others. F.ex is it going to be grown in the US or are companies gonna get their product from other countries? In my opinion, it's details like that which could turn a good idea into a bad one and vice versa. There could be a way to do it which I could support and another I'd be against, but I'm not sure what the general agenda of the pro-legalization people is.

crash_override · 11-03-2010, 12:51 PM

California's Prop 19 has failed, there will be no American legalization measures this year. Exit polls show 46% for, 50% against, a record number of supporters but still not enough to pass it. Trends show that if it were to be put on the ballot next election, it would pass. Many people say that the poor writing of the prop is to blame for the loss, I have to say it was very poorly written, which persuaded many swing votes to go to the opposition.

MAStudent · 11-04-2010, 02:45 AM

Pounds and pounds of marijuana come out of Humboldt County California every day.

No one is stopping it.

Demand is the reason.

The governemnt wants a piece, and that is the whole story. The original letter that started this movement from the Mendocino County Board of Supervisors to the Governor of California explicitly states this outright. ~~~"There is a multi-billion dollar industry going on all around us. The governement is broke. We need to legalize and tax it."

So lets not get greedy and jump on the first weed law that comes our way.

No, you can't absolutely control the growth and flow, and licensure of weed. If its OK to legalize it, lets do it in a way thats good for the people, not some jack ass and his cronies.

I'll wait for a bill that doesn't give someone 5 years in prison for smoking a joint on their own back patio in an apartment complex where someone under 21 years old lives in another apartment.

The taxation opportunity for the government is undeniable. Ok, let them have theirs. But lets not **** the people in the ass to do it.

Guybrush · 11-04-2010, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAStudent

The taxation opportunity for the government is undeniable. Ok, let them have theirs. But lets not **** the people in the ass to do it.

You seem to completely detach the government from the people, but you live in a democracy. Doesn't money to the government mean more money to the people, possibly in the shape of better public schools and roads? That's how we'd see it over here at least.

11-02-2010, 01:54 PM	#406 (permalink)
LoathsomePete Cardboard Box Realtor Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Hobb's End Posts: 7,648	Speaking from the law enforcement side, most cops don't really care about low end drug users like pretty much all of us. Some cops might act like busting some teens smoking pot is the crime of the century, but that is mostly for show. What cops dislike about drugs is the violence that inevitably follows it. Where there is drugs you will find drug violence and or property crime. While violence and property crime mostly manifests to higher tiers of drugs, but when even with pot the violence exists. I also don't really believe that legalizing drugs will lower the violence at all because the dealers will be hanging onto whatever they can hang onto. It would be like if Wal-Mart was coming to town and the town's small business owners took it upon themselves to kill the Wal-Mart store manager and employees. I know I'm extrapolating a little bit, but I know for a fact that a lot of pot dealers here in Nevada are shitting themselves today waiting for the ballots to be counted up in California. If drugs and drug dealers had a better reputation in the public's trust then I think the idea of legalizing drugs would be more favorable. A slightly naive look, but it does contain some truth. __________________ Last.FM 101 Albums That May Not Change Your Life, But I Really Like And You Might Too

11-04-2010, 02:45 AM	#409 (permalink)
MAStudent Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Eureka, CA Posts: 87	Pounds and pounds of marijuana come out of Humboldt County California every day. No one is stopping it. Demand is the reason. The governemnt wants a piece, and that is the whole story. The original letter that started this movement from the Mendocino County Board of Supervisors to the Governor of California explicitly states this outright. ~~~"There is a multi-billion dollar industry going on all around us. The governement is broke. We need to legalize and tax it." So lets not get greedy and jump on the first weed law that comes our way. No, you can't absolutely control the growth and flow, and licensure of weed. If its OK to legalize it, lets do it in a way thats good for the people, not some jack ass and his cronies. I'll wait for a bill that doesn't give someone 5 years in prison for smoking a joint on their own back patio in an apartment complex where someone under 21 years old lives in another apartment. The taxation opportunity for the government is undeniable. Ok, let them have theirs. But lets not **** the people in the ass to do it. __________________ "i think that's the real issue right there. first they tell us that there's no such thing as a brontosaurus, and then they tell us that pluto isn't a planet. i think after those two let-downs most americans have just decided "frag scientists." "- oops, I forgot who I quoted. adolescent something?