The Unfan

The doctor doesn't have the right to forcefully acquire this information so if we say abortion is acceptable in the case of rape we must say its always legal to protect the rights of the mother.

boo boo

A seond trimester fetus is very clearly a human being. And to argue against a third trimester being human is absurd. The idea that it doesn't classify as a human being until it pops out through the magic vagina is totally ridiculous.

Late term abortions should be illegal entirely.

You're right and if you noticed I already said that. I'm just talking about instances in which I think it is morally justified, but I should clarify that I only think first trimester should be legal.

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The Unfan

What defines a human?

Guybrush

I'm not pushing the argument that a fetus is not a human. It has a human genome, it's alive, why wouldn't it be? However, does it have the capability of feeling pain or sadness to that of a born baby or a person?

If not, should it enjoy the same kind of moral consideration that a baby or person does? I don't think so. I think in the pregnancy, the mother gets higher moral consideration and by forcing her to have a child she doesn't want to have and causing her and potentially others suffering, I think you're more morally wrong than by aborting the fetus.

If it's situation where f.ex the mother is a total vegetable (braindead) then the choice should be with someone else like the father. The best thing would of course be to involve everyone who are affected by the decision although that is hard in practice.

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mr dave

man it feels like i'm always defending myself against you and booboo... when we're on the same side... i just wrote my post last night at the end of my day and used the same level of crass vernacular as the people who would post funny pics of dead baby bumper stickers.

although, i DO side with the 'tough luck kiddo' angle on things that's really for those who want to use the practice for selfish reasons. if there are health risks, or the pregnancy is due to rape, then that's a different situation. on the other hand if it's just some irresponsible teen who wants to be able to continue acting like an irresponsible teen... then no, i very much disagree with the practice.

while some will learn from their mistake there are plenty of others who simply want to use it to be able to continue enjoying the irresponsible lifestyle they had prior to potentially being forced to step up to the responsibility they created for themselves. i'm thinking it might be a geographical difference, i see a very immature and irresponsible sense of entitlement developing quite a bit throughout north america, it just might not be as prevalent in scandanavian countries (you guys don't seem nearly as dumb/childish).

as for the morals behind my views. personally i don't believe in full on intercourse with someone unless i'm comfortable with the idea of living another lifetime through their eyes. that's what i see a baby as, it's an extension of my existence through another body, the ONLY way to continue living beyond my own lifetime. it's like creating a backup of myself and my partner to be housed in either hemisphere of the brain of the new individual she'll carry in her womb. as such i just can't bring myself to randomly do it without protection with various women just because i can. i guess i respect myself too much to risk trapping / wasting my real future.

like booboo said, the fundamentalists are making this argument really challenging. killing doctors who perform the practice does not help the cause, bloody posters on the side of the highway neither. forcing the idea of abstinence to a bunch of teenagers is the dumbest crap ever. education is the key. real, honest, education that is.

i'm not religious, i don't see the need to believe in god to be a responsible adult. if i can choose to be responsible so can anyone else. it's just a matter of shoving your ego off to the side long enough to do what you need instead of what you want.

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The Unfan

Why shouldn't we have sex for selfish reasons? Getting off is just as good as any reason to do anything that I can think of. Wanting to have fun and not have a child seems totally acceptable to me. You wouldn't tell someone "tough luck" if they blew their fingers off with a firecracker, you'd get an ambulence.

Thrice

There has been very little discussion of morals from the pro-choice side, the argument is completely about whether or not a fetus is living, then comparing it to animals, then posting a lame picture. What drives the pro-choice compass? Im completely for the 'tough luck kiddo' mentality. The term 'accidental pregnancy' should not be involved with the term 'abortion' what-so-ever. The fact that I have seen my daughter as a past fetus and heard her heart beat as well as ultrasounds drives my moral compass. Unfan, the firecracker thing is more than less irrelevant in the fact that there is no alternative means after the action. There is no decision to be made and there is no safe alternative. If you want it to be relevant, I'd say you shouldn't have played with fire kiddo, or you'll bet burned.

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Lew Harrison, who looked like an anarchist with his red eyes and fierce black beard, had been writing furiously in one corner of the room. "That's good—happiness by the kilowatt," he said. "Buy your happiness the way you buy light."

mr dave

i never said people shouldn't have sex. no one did. what i said was people shouldn't have unprotected intercourse unless they feel comfortable with the possibility of creating new life with the person they are doing it with. the concept is simpler to grasp than that sentence was to type.

condoms aren't hard to find, birth control pills aren't hard to find either. there's virtually no reason for accidental pregnancies aside from simple personal irresponsibility. if you're not willing to face the real consequences of your actions you shouldn't be acting.

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Scarlett O'Hara

There are exceptions though, even when using condoms and birth control pills women can still get pregnant. But that is what the morning after pill is for. There is such a thing as girls being allergic to condoms, and they can break. You might have a condom break in a place where you can't get to a chemist easily, so there is always ways to slip through.

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mr dave

yes, but those odds are ridiculously small. plus there's the whole 2nd part to my statement, that, while you don't need to believe or follow when you're just doing it for kicks, is still something that should be recognized.

i guess i just see myself as more than our highest basic instinct.

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