Guybrush

I'm pro-choice .. as a biologist, I don't really see anything holy about an embryo. We're a god-forsaken bunch.

It's an interesting moral topic and I've read through the answers here and it doesn't seem like a lot are actually providing any arguments why they should be pro-life or pro-choice. From a utilitarian perspective, the right thing to do is whatever causes the least amount of pain and/or most amount of happiness. Because you can't know if the child will be happy or not, you could argue that when taking such a decision, you should look at the now and whatever you think might happen. The possibility of the child living a happy life is just speculation and could be disregarded. Since it's logical to assume that a fetus does not have the capability to suffer much because of an abortion, it should not have the same moralistic consideration as that of an adult person, for example the mother. In other words, you should do what maximizes the happiness of people such as the mother and father, not the fetus which is probably neither happy or sad about the decision.

Obviously, from such a utilitarian standpoint, you have to be pro-choice because it's the only feasible, practical way to attempt to make such a philosophy work. Granted, most people are not wholly utilitarian because it justifies gruesome acts for the sake of the better good. For example you kill one to save a hundred. Such a situation would be easy to defend from a utilitarian perspective, but normative ethics may have a problem with it (ex. "thou shalt not kill"). Still, utilitarian ethics are often used in life and death situations. For example if you do first aid in a situation where there are several victims, should you focus your effort on the person which is hurt the most and will most likely die or should you rather try and save those you are more likely to be able to help?

I'm not sure if I'm 100% utilitarian when it comes to pro-life or pro-choice, but I don't think the potential of being a person automatically grants the same moralistic considerations as actually being one. Thus, I think the one you have to consider is the mother (/parents) and so she should get to choose.

Besides, we can use those little suckers for stemcell research!

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khfreek

I guess I read through your post too quickly. Let's just say it's too shaky a fact for either side to go on really, as human lives are different from animals'.

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Guybrush

I don't think people necessarily extend more moralistic concern for people than they do for animals. Many would rather the japanese whaler dies than the whale he's hunting. How we feel about other people depends on many things, for example family relations, are they an "us" or "them", etc.

Also, you shouldn't think we're so different from animals. We're not, we're just smart. When they trained the gorilla Coco to use sign language, she was able to express a range of emotions that we typically think of as human such as love and jealousy. She also had memories of her parents getting killed by hunters. In short, we have a lot in common with other animals and there's no reason to think what motivates humans to action are not motivators in other mammals.

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Thrice

Maybe it is how you look at it, it seems the pro-choice defense is mostly related to the death of the fetus, where as the way I look at it, being pro-life is more of initially preventing such an event to have the opportunity to occur. If that makes any sense? I feel it is the means to an end provided by irresponsibility in the first place. My arguement really is focused more on preconception and manning up to your responsibilities. I feel abortion is a mulligan on life. This is why there a numerous contraceptions. If you play the lottery and lose do you get your money back? Basically, just man up. I guess since God was brought up, you could say its not his way, but dont quote me on this, for I am not a God fearing man and believe that this run on sentence can not be backed up by facts, only others beliefs.

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Lew Harrison, who looked like an anarchist with his red eyes and fierce black beard, had been writing furiously in one corner of the room. "That's good—happiness by the kilowatt," he said. "Buy your happiness the way you buy light."

Guybrush

I don't necessarily think the right way to promote responsibility is by taking away people's freedoms. Furthermore, by using the "manning-up" argument for being pro-life, you're extrapolating the argument into something which it isn't. This is simply about wether or not people should have the freedom to get abortions if they want - not their feelings of responsibility.

I think there are ways to have the freedom of abortion and promote responsibility in a society at the same time. If your reason for being pro-choice has more to do with people owning up to responsibilities, then I think it's better to start looking for other ways to achieve that goal than argue with the pro-choicers.

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Thrice

I think you meant pro-life, and I agree to an extent with the last paragraph. I completely see the debate as how one looks at it, apparently we are arguing two completely different views on the matter. I take a moral stand point as opposed to the political. I am arguing a more personal belief as opposed to the law and the freedom to get an abortion. Im not looking to achieve any goals, that why I am extremely reluctant to post here. I dont really know how to express my opinions about this, but I am not arguing for a pro-life society, more of expressing my views on abortion. Basically, Im against abortion outside of rape, yet still dont really care about what anyone else does. ****, I cant really explain what I'm trying to say, it's 8am here and I have yet to sleep.

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Lew Harrison, who looked like an anarchist with his red eyes and fierce black beard, had been writing furiously in one corner of the room. "That's good—happiness by the kilowatt," he said. "Buy your happiness the way you buy light."

Guybrush

Sorry, yeah I meant pro-life in my last paragraph ..

It sounds like you're not really extremist pro-choice, but more like you're for compromise. For example that rape victims that get pregnant are allowed, but f.ex not someone acting irresponsibly on a night out. I'm more lenient I think, but I can see where you're coming from.

Most of the pro-lifers I've read and seen on the telly tend to argue normative ethics, thou shalt not kill, and say that abortion is as bad as killing a person. From that argument, even rape victims can't have abortions because being raped doesn't justify "murder" (abortion). It's this whole stance in general that I particularly don't agree with.

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TheBig3

No, its certainly not. But I doubt few having sex don't know that father/motherhood is a potential outcome.

I'm pro-choice. To clarify my position though, i'd like to point out its about choice not

• its not yet a human so it isn't murder
• its my body blah blah blah
• we shouldn't have it if we can't afford it

For me, I don't need to include that list in the policy of it all. Those things are for individuals to decide I will say though that I believe people that have the children when they can't are generally a larger strain on your community than any person should be.

And for christ sakes, take your accidental mircles our out of all Supermarkets, grocery stores, and restaurants.

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Guybrush

And all kinds of public transport, please.

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TheBig3

I largely agree with this too, but since the train is already loud, and its warm enough here to bike now, I don't mind letting them ride the train...

although strollers and the stairs...really? go last, please.

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