How Real Is Christianity?

cardboard adolescent · 04-07-2009, 02:40 AM

here's a question taking it to the extreme of abstraction: why do things perpetuate themselves if not out of fear for ending? just for kicks?

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Originally Posted by jibber

Many people who do charity work do so from a feeling of right and wrong. It is wrong that people suffer needlessly, and they want to help. Many of these people are not religious, and they seek no gratification for their work. They don't look for ways to publicize their charity to show the world "hey everyone, look what a good person I am!" They are satisfied with just the work itself. You can reduce it to whatever you want to, you can say it's guilt , a selfish desire to look good, a selfish desire to make themselves feel better, or whatever you want to explain the motivation. I don't agree with you, and since we're arguing on points that are impossible to prove or disprove, and since frankly, this debate is starting to get boring, that's all I have to say about it.

the point is you CAN trace it back to something, and if that something isn't God or something equivalent like Truth, Love, Justice, or Goodness, which all reside in a "Heaven of Ideas," it's probably something kind of stupid/banal. like a chemical reaction.

**Janszoon** · 04-07-2009, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

here's a question taking it to the extreme of abstraction: why do things perpetuate themselves if not out of fear for ending? just for kicks?

Yep, just for kicks. The end.

jibber · 04-07-2009, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

here's a question taking it to the extreme of abstraction: why do things perpetuate themselves if not out of fear for ending? just for kicks?

because since homo erectus, the human brain has grown in capacity, and we now have the ability to do things for motivation other than simply surviving. Again, arguing for the sake of arguing bores the sh*t out of me, I got into thi argument because something ZZZ said grated against something I felt strongly against. Arguing semantics just for ****s and giggles is not something I enjoy doing, so I'll let this one die. You can say you won if you like.

sleepy jack · 04-07-2009, 02:46 AM

I think it's a bit of both. I don't see anything wrong with a species fearing the end of its existence. However with the way humanity is going it's obviously we as a species aren't going to last very long but the Earth will ultimately recover (barring a mass nuclear war or something to completely ravage the Earth so it can't sustain or even create life) and there will be new species that will evolve - that's a different discussion though.

I think, when you examine people (this is just in my experience) many live for both reasons (this is also operating under the pretense no one believes in god.) I for one live solely for pleasure, or kicks as you put it, but I do know people, who are probably more noble then myself that want to see society continue to prosper and humans to live the way they do (in control to a certain extent.)

cardboard adolescent · 04-07-2009, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Yep, just for kicks. The end.

then what are "kicks?" if everything does it for the kicks then there must be some transcendent thing "kicks" that everything has access to, since it is the motivating factor for everything in the universe. everything exists for the purpose of 'kicks,' and 'kicks' exist for the purpose of breathing life into everything, and as such, i think this loosely fits a working definition of God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibber

because since homo erectus, the human brain has grown in capacity, and we now have the ability to do things for motivation other than simply surviving. Again, arguing for the sake of arguing bores the sh*t out of me, I got into thi argument because something ZZZ said grated against something I felt strongly against. Arguing semantics just for ****s and giggles is not something I enjoy doing, so I'll let this one die. You can say you won if you like.

intellectual superiority confirmed. phew, i was worried there for a second.

**Janszoon** · 04-07-2009, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

then what are "kicks?" if everything does it for the kicks then there must be some transcendent thing "kicks" that everything has access to, since it is the motivating factor for everything in the universe. everything exists for the purpose of 'kicks,' and 'kicks' exist for the purpose of breathing life into everything, and as such, i think this loosely fits a working definition of God.

The hilarious thing is I was going to fake quote you saying almost this exact same thing. As a joke.

cardboard adolescent · 04-07-2009, 03:08 AM

the great cosmic joke!

ElephantSack · 04-07-2009, 09:23 AM

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Originally Posted by sleepy jack

What you depict (I'm assuming your description of its role in the family is the "harmless idea" side of Christianity) is mental child abuse.

It's my opinion that corrupting somebody's mind is one of the worst human crimes. Especially when it starts from infancy. Its programming, pure and simple, and its something that I strongly disagree with.

I feel like I just lucked out in the parents department sometimes, because they explained Christianity to us in a fairly objective way, and then let us explore it for ourselves. And naturally, I see the initial Christian messages as no more than simple human morals. Be respectful, be accepting, be honorable, to everyone. Its when an agenda got involved is when it got perverted. That's when they started saying: "Thou shalt not kill... unless we tell you to."

Blue · 04-07-2009, 10:06 AM

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Originally Posted by ElephantSack

It's my opinion that corrupting somebody's mind is one of the worst human crimes. Especially when it starts from infancy. Its programming, pure and simple, and its something that I strongly disagree with.

I feel like I just lucked out in the parents department sometimes, because they explained Christianity to us in a fairly objective way, and then let us explore it for ourselves. And naturally, I see the initial Christian messages as no more than simple human morals. Be respectful, be accepting, be honorable, to everyone. Its when an agenda got involved is when it got perverted. That's when they started saying: "Thou shalt not kill... unless we tell you to."

I actually had just this conversation with a friend of mine recently. The fact that people twist the minds of children to benefit their own biased views of life sickens me, because that child has no chance and his/her mind will be completely warped. Though it's hard to say that because at the same time, those people probably feel they're doing good, because if they didn't preach Christianity (or whatever belief), they'd be "wrong" as parents. Also, without even trying, your kids will emulate you to some respect, so in some ways you're always casting your beliefs on them.

But anyways, overall I agree completely. It's almost as if you're robbing that person of their life before they even have the choice. How can there be a bigger crime then that?

midnight rain · 04-07-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

Jesus doesn't like it when you lie. You didn't come in here and defend Christianity and talk about your faith being a personal choice. Read your posts, want me to quote them for you? You sarcastically mocked atheists, demanded they prove something you yourself said was unprovable and then avoided any discussion by citing "faith" as your sole reason for believing. Do not continue this discussion by pretending you were being anything other than arrogant, condescending and self-righteous.

And here you are mocking me and my religious beliefs because I "lied" supposedly. Your jab at Jesus is just as arrogant as anything I've said in this thread. For the hundredth (and last) time, I asked for facts from Atheists/Agnostics that god doesn't exist because that is there reasoning behind God not existing. If they have proof God doesn't exist, I want to here it. I have no proof other than my faith. I've made it quite clear that the only reason I've asked for proof is because that is what Atheists/Agnostics use to justify their non-belief.

And for the love of God (love, not hate), stop telling me I'm arrogant. I get it that you think that of me, it's been said and made very redundant and isn't constructive in the slightest. The comment I felt sorry about posting after I posted is arrogant, yes. I took the initiative and apologized to you and offered to remove it. You declined. Cut down on the abuse, honestly.

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Then it's a stupid statement to stand behind. Christians did not invent morality and they have no claim to it - nor do they have claim to many of the great civil rights advancements of recent times. In fact by using faith as your justification you're only condoning the acts of extremists (e.g. 9/11 and suicide bombing.)

Yeah, I'm also condoning the kind religious people who do good every day but you don't hear about it because of the way our media is.

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There's also another logical fallacy I see in your post. You're essentially saying that the believer has reason to be moral because of his fear of eternal punishment by that logic, the moral nonbeliever (and there is such a thing as a moral nonbeliever) is moral for no reason other than for the sake of being moral. Which do you consider to be the more noble moralist? For me it's the latter.

That's not logical fallacy, it's your opinion. And it's also not true, just because they hold to their morals for religious beliefs doesn't mean they don't do good for the sake of doing good. It's not one or the other, you can have both.

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As far as nonbelievers committing more crimes (aside from you having provide no evidence other than personal experience) I highly doubt they do it because of their critical thinking and skeptical inquiry. Let's take an example near and dear to your heart (as a Catholic) if you see a man molest a child why do you think he did it? Because he was an atheist (or more likely a Priest) or because of lust? There's no logical connection between the former and the act, however there is a logical connection between lust and the act.

Most people (in my experience) find Christianity because they are looking for a movement that preaches respecting each other and following the word of God by being a model citizen. Other than that and the benefits you reap in the afterlife (where you'd have to be good in life anyways), there's no motivation for being a Christian. You don't get paid to be one. So people who aren't the kind of people who would do the right thing in a scenario that would benefit them more to do the wrong thing aren't likely to be Christians.

04-07-2009, 03:08 AM	#177 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	the great cosmic joke! Last edited by cardboard adolescent; 04-07-2009 at 03:54 AM.