How Real Is Christianity?

**Janszoon** · 04-07-2009, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zzz

And I stand behind what I said. That doesn't make Atheists/Agnostics any lesser of people, they just don't have any role model of sorts to base their morals off of. They don't have the motivation to do good that Christians have.

You're right, the motivation is different. Atheists do good for the sake of doing good, not to try and earn brownie points with Jesus.

Also, with regard to your insinuation that atheists commit more crimes, what do you make of the statistical reality that there are disproportionally lower numbers of atheists in prison than religious people?

Freebase Dali · 04-07-2009, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

What you depict (I'm assuming your description of its role in the family is the "harmless idea" side of Christianity) is mental child abuse.

Amen brother.

Edit:
Specifically the devils/demons aspect of it as well.

jibber · 04-07-2009, 01:50 AM

Ethan brings up another point about the idea of putting the "fear of god" into people. The whole notion of doing good for fear of the wrath of god feels wrong to me. I'd rather my children raised to know what is right and wrong, and make good decisions based on their own knowledge, understanding and judgement, not based on the fear that some spiritual boogy-man is going to smite them if they don't toe the line.

jibber · 04-07-2009, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Also, with regard to your insinuation that atheists commit more crimes, what do you make of the statistical reality that there are disproportionally lower numbers of atheists in prison than religious people?

Well, these people must have only "found god" AFTER going to prison. and now, god bless their immortal soul, they're SAVED! In the eyes of god a rapist and murderer is just as good and beautiful a person as Ghandi or Mother Teresa since he's accepted Jesus as his lord and savior. And because a child molester mumbled "yeah...sorry bout that" to god, he now has stronger morals than us atheists damned to eternal hellfire.

cardboard adolescent · 04-07-2009, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibber

Ethan brings up another point about the idea of putting the "fear of god" into people. The whole notion of doing good for fear of the wrath of god feels wrong to me. I'd rather my children raised to know what is right and wrong, and make good decisions based on their own knowledge, understanding and judgement, not based on the fear that some spiritual boogy-man is going to smite them if they don't toe the line.

doesn't that just move the fear of judgment from God to society? I don't think this argument has gone much past a superficial level so far.

**Janszoon** · 04-07-2009, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibber

Well, these people must have only "found god" AFTER going to prison. and now, god bless their immortal soul, they're SAVED! In the eyes of god a rapist and murderer is just as good and beautiful a person as Ghandi or Mother Teresa since he's accepted Jesus as his lord and savior. And because a child molester mumbled "yeah...sorry bout that" to god, he now has stronger morals than us atheists damned to eternal hellfire.

LOL. Of course.

Freebase Dali · 04-07-2009, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

doesn't that just move the fear of judgment from God to society? I don't think this argument has gone much past a superficial level so far.

No. I think the comparison is morality as a result of spiritual fear versus morality as a result of genuine willingness to do good, regardless of consequence for negative actions.

cardboard adolescent · 04-07-2009, 02:00 AM

'genuine willingness to do good,' where does the idea of 'genuine' come from, why is there a 'willingness' present, and how do we define the 'good'? sounds like a series of responses to social pressures to me. if you could arrive at such a state without interacting with other people and being forced to adopt the social game, you'd have to assume the existence of God.

jibber · 04-07-2009, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

doesn't that just move the fear of judgment from God to society? I don't think this argument has gone much past a superficial level so far.

Not in my mind no. Someone who refrains from causing harm on others merely because it is against the law and only because they fear repercussions from society is no better than someone who only refrains from causing harm because of the fear of god.

A truly good person is someone who seeks to help people not just to "earn brownie points with jesus" or to earn brownie points from society, but because they are driven by something inside them, and have some internal motivation to make a positive difference in whatever way. The motivation shouldn't come from a fear of god or a fear of society, it should come from an internal desire to do good.

Freebase Dali · 04-07-2009, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardboard adolescent

'genuine willingness to do good,' where does the idea of 'genuine' come from, why is there a 'willingness' present, and how do we define the 'good'? sounds like a series of responses to social pressures to me.

It's the assumption that (most) humans have a natural capacity to care that's not a result of legal consequence.
I think, if anything, the inability to care is more of an effect of societal pressure than the inverse.

Edit:
Instead of inability, I should have said "unwillingness".

04-07-2009, 01:50 AM	#153 (permalink)
jibber Freeskier Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Istanbul was Constantinople now it's Istanbul not Constantinople... Posts: 1,536	Ethan brings up another point about the idea of putting the "fear of god" into people. The whole notion of doing good for fear of the wrath of god feels wrong to me. I'd rather my children raised to know what is right and wrong, and make good decisions based on their own knowledge, understanding and judgement, not based on the fear that some spiritual boogy-man is going to smite them if they don't toe the line. __________________ What you've done becomes the judge of what you're going to do -- especially in other people's minds. When you're traveling, you are what you are right there and then. People don't have your past to hold against you. No yesterdays on the road. William Least Heat Moon, Blue Highways Your toughest competitor lives in your head. Some days his name is fear, or pain, or gravity. Stomp his ass. HOOKED ON THE WHITE POWDER

04-07-2009, 02:00 AM	#158 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	'genuine willingness to do good,' where does the idea of 'genuine' come from, why is there a 'willingness' present, and how do we define the 'good'? sounds like a series of responses to social pressures to me. if you could arrive at such a state without interacting with other people and being forced to adopt the social game, you'd have to assume the existence of God.