again, i think we share a lot of similar views, we just approach that undefined element from total opposite perspectives hehe.

i thought of something today, if your an athiest and you think you just die and its a long dirt nap, whats the point of living you have nothing to look forward to, dont you think you should believe in something so you dont think that you just die

I'm not really sure what I am to be truthful but I don't agree one shouldn't live because of the possibility of nothing after we die. All the more reason to live it up in my opinion, we may not have a second shot at it... make this one count.

yes but still do you get what im saying

Agreed and I'm satisfied with leaving it at that if you are. Even if we didn't exactly reach a completely mutual viewpoint, it was a nice exchange of thoughts and opinions. :beer:

meh, prepare for the worst. When you die you won't know what happens after anyways if there is no god or afterlife.

indeed, i never expected to reach a mutual viewpoint, only to expand my own with new perspectives (and hopefully provide a few new ones for you and others as well). :thumb:

personally i'd been struggling with a way to explain 'genetic survival' for a while. the idea was there, i just didn't quite have the means to wrap words around it yet hehe.

If you're a theist why don't you just get yourself killed as quickly as possible so you can get to heaven quicker?

He'll be walking up to the pearly gates, God will be wearing a clown suit and glaring at him when he arrives, then he'll simply say ' Homey don't play that.' and smack him with a hard-rubber sack sending him straight into the fiery pit.

i was just going to say something like that, but i couldn't make it sound funny for some reason. LMAO

I wasn't talking about suicide so much as joining the front line or something.

that was his point in that post. I think, lol

There is some order to the universe, just none that's been defined by any of the idiotic institutions set up in the current civilization.

Um the way I understood his post was suicide is a sin and if you did it you couldn't get into heaven - not that if you got killed in a war god would send you to hell for it.

I wrote a paper on prayer in secular schools today. I stated that even as a non-christian that I supported non-endorsed prayer to be allowed in secular schools. All of the Christians at my school either tried to convert me or thought I was strange for not being Christian and thinking that way. All of the Athiests thought I was some sort of traitor.

I mean for Chrystler's sake, sending off a prayer during the moment of silence isn't forcing or endorsing religion on anyone. And I don't believe in mandatory praying sessions because not only is that forcing religion on people, but this is a secular country and there is a Christian school right across town ffs.

what exists outside of our minds?

I don't even understand what the last two posts have to do with whether or not the Abrahamic god exists or not.

I didn't know where else to put it, sorry.

Your post wasn't that bad or even necessarily off-topic considering how broad this threads become. Really it's just Darkest Hour's post that has no relevancy whatsoever.

has anyone ever heard of the law of nature and no god theory? Some guy was talking about it in another forum and it sounded interesting.

A long dirt nap? Why would it be like that? Or you could phrase it into a question. Do you remember dreaming something exciting the summer months of the year 1536? I don't because I don't think I existed. I think being dead means you are no longer, you don't experience anything, your mind and body is dead and you percieve nothing, not even dirt naps.

I don't see what's so wrong with that death. Unless your existence is a true misery, it's not good, it's not bad, it's nothing to worry about and nothing to look forward to.

I still have a life that I enjoy that contains things to look forward to so despite being an atheist, I don't feel that everything is completely pointless. I wanna make my mark upon the earth, have children and so on. Maybe all that won't matter to me when I'm dead, but then I'm not dead at the moment so it does matter.

I agree with Ethan, it makes just as much sense if not more for christians to go die thann it does for atheists (not that I think it makes sense to go die in general).

Despite me being what many would consider to be a contradiction in terms: a spiritual atheist, I don't really give too much consideration to the afterlife, whether one exists or not. If some equivalent of heaven exists then I'm sure its lovely If not no worries.....I'm dead.

im not i wasnt saying that i am but if there is god killing yourself is an abomination, or inflicting pain on oneself anyway. so maybe you would go to hell for killing yourself seeing it wasnt your time? i dont know

wouldnt you rather have an afterlife though , if you could pick what would you do, go to a heaven, or be nothing.

To me it doesn't matter much. Nothing seems like the safest bet actually. At least then I wouldn't have to find out that heaven forever isn't as good as I thought it would be. :p

I don't worry about hell either which is nice.

you wouldnt care if you burned for eternity? that would hurt a little i hope you know

I guess if there is an afterlife and I go to hell, then probably everyone goes to hell.

(edit : of course I'd rather take nothing over hell. duh!)

obviously lol.

not really.

whenever I see men on the front line being interviewed they almost always mention something about God.

its just a good reason for them

the Bible doesn't actually explicitly define what hell is. there's no mention of a lake of fire, pointy objects or any of that other garbage. it merely states that it exists as "separation from God."

Actually it does in revelation, heaven for us peoples of this earth will live in the new jerusalem the city of god. Not forgetting the new earth god has created for us for the old earth has faded away. Hell on the other hand it states that its hot and theres nothing to drink so if you wan't it its all yours.

i wouldn't put too much faith in Revelations, it was written at least a century after all the disciples had already recorded their own accounts of Christ's life by a hermit living in seclusion from the rest of the world. you have to understand, even if you believe the Bible was God's word, it was still written by humans and thus holds as much subjectivity as our own opinions do today.

thats why you dont know if people wrote it just to be idiots they could of made up a lot of that

it's not whether or not the bible is an accurate history of the life of christ or just a collection of stories a bunch of stoners wrote 2000 years ago. the significant aspect is independent personal belief.

Christianity is real enough for politicians to use it in political decisions that affect hundreds of millions of individuals.

That's pretty ****ing real.

So basically what you're saying is that subject matter is irrelevant, just so long as people are able to believe in it in their own way?
That's crap.

If the whole point of Christianity has no connection to the accuracy of what people believe in, but the bare belief itself, then those beliefs aren't really based on anything but a personal weakness and the need for comfort.

No it's not and You're misinterpreting what he's trying to say.

When most of us speak of religion or more specifically faith we tend to erroneously read in "belief" as the definition for both, and while belief and faith are not mutually exclusive and there is a distinction that must be made between the two. To be fair most people, including many self-professed religious people, associate their faith with their creed- that which explains there beliefs regarding the creation, human nature, the afterlife etc. Along with this usually follows an attitude of "I'm gonna' simply follow the rules as I'm told that they are by the bible or whatever respective religious text and I intend through this to circumvent any sort of damnation or bad karma that may result from the circumstances of my life" That in a nutshell among other distinctions is what differentiates religion from spirituality. This attitude is what many open minded evangelicals dub the spirit of religion. It is almost entirely fear based and Christianity, as well as the other Abrahamic religions is infested with it. Unfortunately this is the "religion" that most "outsiders" become the most exposed to, as it is definitely the most outspoken viewpoint.

Getting back to faith. Faith is a spiritual dynamic between the individual and the transcendental. It is a desire to align oneself through ones actions and habits as directly as possible with the divine. I hesitate to say God, because just the word god is saturated w/ so many religion-based and negative connotations that its use often takes the mind off course in discussions such as these. The relationship between the individual and the transcendental exists independently of scientific proof. Just as humans breath independently of the biological knowledge of what lungs are and their respective purpose. To those who choose to go beyond owning a belief structure and pursue a relationship w/ the divine there is no science in the world that can effectively invalidate their experience. The experience is the proof.

Now in regard to religious texts. Despite the evidence of historical inaccuracies and scientific improbabilities many spiritually minded people, including myself, will tell you that the wisdom that is inherent in such text is exists independently from its historic or scientific validity (which is exactly what mr. dave was trying to assert). To use an analogy, in one of Aesop's Fables, The Tortoise and the Hare, the moral of the story "slow and steady wins the race" has value despite the fact that we all know that tortoises and hares cant speak and the probability of them having a race against each other is pretty slim.
Despite the historical improbability of this event happening there is value, wisdom, inherent in it. The same goes for Christianity and other religions, but the problem with religion is that they are treated by fundamentalist nincompoops as if iys value is dependent on there historical and scientific accuracy, hence the entire apologetics movement. This IMO is the greatest mistake that most religions make. The value that is inherent in religious text is that which broadens and fosters one's relationship with the transcendent and which elevates ones level of consciousness. If it does not do this or if such wisdom is manipulated for greed based purposes or if its misinterpreted and implemented at a lower level of consciousness than what its intended for, then it is cancerous and should be ignored.

As Jesus said in Matthew 7:16 "You will know them by their fruit"

I understand your first two paragraphs. I was born and raised in church under a non-denominational Christian faith. I'm not debating the difference between beliefs and faith. I know the difference.
What I'm targeting is belief resulting from biblical scripture.

Most Christians I've met believe most of what the bible says (in the new testament, anyway).
I don't remember the verse (and excuse the sarcasm here) but I'm pretty sure that most Christians believe in an after-life as a result of their religion's ideals.

What I'm questioning here is if we're simply using the bible as a moral tap and give no thought to it in any other context, we're not really fulfilling the requirements set by the religion. Ultimately, we could strip out all the divinity and happenings from the bible and just leave quotes akin to the ones you see in Psalms and Acts and get our wisdom there. If we need to learn about sacrifice, why believe that a guy died for your sins, when you can simply learn about sacrifice like the rest of us do.
Are we simply using the bible as a tool? Or are we truly believing in Christianity?
One would assume those are two separate things.

in the loosest sense, isn't the bible a tool to get to god? of course religion should be seen as a tool, it's hardly an end in itself. it's just words...