Gender Roles
 

Are obsolete, necessary, inane? Discuss.

Heh.. I was just talking to my dad the other day about how sexist he is. He had been telling me that he treats women with respect after generalizing about "women's importance in the kitchen VS. women's importance in the workplace".
There's no educating this type of person. He grew up in a time where gender roles were a part of every day life, and through the years he saw it change and he feels like it's a change for the worse.
What he's really fearing is that man's grasp on the upper hand is slowly giving way to independent women who're able to do things for themselves. Women know it, and men like my dad can't stand it.

Gender roles were the product of environmental influence. Our societal environment is a lot more accommodating now than it used to be, so gender roles aren't serving the purpose they used to. Any gender can go out there and do anything and be successful. To remain tied to a tradition of expectation that's obsolete in today's world is not necessary. But hey, if both parties agree to it, then who's to say they're wrong... Ultimately it's up to the individual, right?

Necessary and waning.
The line gets drawn when people try to force people in to roles.
Other than that I believe this whole men acting like women thing is a passing fad.

I don't want to get personal but yeah they're bullshit and society enforcing how males/females should act according to some outdated senseless standards is even bullshittier.

We're not talking about emo kids. lol.

Don't get a male acting like a male confused with misoginy. I'm as much of a feminist as they come, and fully believe women should be treated with the upmost respect.
But men acting like men is innate, and vice-versa. This going over the top to act like the opposite gender seems so trendy and speaks to an annoying culture to me.
As far as "roles" in the household go, they are obviously a byproduct of environment. That's not what I'm talking about.

Neither am I.

'Twas a joke bro.
I probably should have put a wink smiley. That would have seemed a bit feminine though...

What does a "male acting like a male" mean exactly?

But that's really what gender roles boil down to right? Environmental influence. It's seen most in the workplace and at home, but what you're talking about is a little different than what I perceived the OP's point to be.
Maybe I'm off a little.
I wasn't talking about a manly-man beginning to physically and emotionally act like a woman in terms of gender-specific behavior that's dictated by nature. That's not a gender role.
Gender roles are socially imposed.

The only other socially imposed scenario I can think of is, like you said, fads, which, like I said, EMO.

Protector, more aggressive, less caring.

Again, ton of subtleties here. I know the kinds of people it seems like I'm identifying with. It's not like that.

As far as dudes plucking eyebrows to look good and all this, it's fleeting, I hope.

Anyone can live any way they want in my eyes. No pressure.

How are those innate? I can think of plenty of males, who don't pluck their eyebrows or wear tight pants who are far more "feminine" by those standards masculine. I'm one of them - I've never been the dominate one in a relationship and I rarely ever (in real life) actually get angry or upset. You could argue this comes down to how I was raised but by the same token my upbringing was fairly ordinary and there's no reason that I should go against what is the nature of a penis according to you.

Males adhering to a natural inclination that has no societal influence, like aggressiveness, has absolutely nothing to do with socially imposed expectations.
If a guy is more aggressive than a girl, it's not a gender role. It's a fact of nature. And if it's the other way around, like a guy being less aggressive than a girl, it's still nature. If you don't believe that, then you're in the school of thought that reasons homosexuals can change their sexual preference. No. Doesn't work like that. It's not an environmental cue.

And, as far as "dudes plucking their eyebrows", well I guess that's just a personal choice. I think they look ridiculous too, but they're involved with how they look so they can score some ass. It may be a passing thing, but it's not a role that anyone is expected, on a large scale, to adhere to.

Your argument has nothing to do with the original post idea.

I've always felt they were mostly just a product of how our culture views socially acceptable gender standards. I'm a man, yet I don't like what the stereotypical man likes. I'd rather spend my time doing something creative and artistic like music, or reading, or generally something that's intellectually stimulating. I don't like action movies, I don't have that much of an interest in sports, I don't have an interest in "picking up" women (not that I don't want to meet women of course, but I think there's a difference between meeting and trying to pick up and bed), I don't have an interest in violence, I don't have an interest in giving off an image of "tough," or really many of the socially viewed stereotypical male interests/qualities. I also like to care, which apparently isn't quite a male quality either. I think it's really up to the individual, as someone else said.

How is aggresiveness innate?? Testosterone?
Protector? Testosterone?
Less caring? Talk to any feminist philosopher about over-aggressive patriarchy and why men are inherently less caring individuals. Or about the "care ethic."

You're all good to live how you want, I feel like you're trying to get me to pick on you for it.

So do you believe a man can't be a genuinely caring individual, or are you just saying generally?

That's what I said. But purposely taking on traditionally feminin activities isn't just letting go of social stigmas. It's a shitty trend.

When I type something, do you read it?
Thanks for the update on homosexuality. You really saved me there.
You're probably under the school of thought that cringes when you see to guys kissing, and fap, cheer, and cheers to two lesbians. As long as we're going on assumptions.

Generally, and not that we aren't carring. Just in an overall, side-by-side comparison, not as much as females.

Generally, I can agree, though I guess I've never really understood the stereotypical male myself; how can people care so little and be so half-hearted? I think there's exceptions to every rule though.

That aspect of yourself isn't something that's new. Think about our great artists, musicians, and creative minds throughout history. I'm sure they didn't prefer to spend their time sword fighting and seeing how hard they could punch each other before getting knocked out. Yet, they were accepted and admired because of their talents.
But had those artists and musicians served as homemakers while their wives worked in the mills, they surely would have been looked down upon at historical points in time. Hell, even within the last 30 years you could see it.

Back to the OP:

The roles each gender plays has been a socially influenced factor in our culture for so many years, we've started to think it's natural, when in reality, it's not. We've come a long way from living in caves and hunting for food. Back then, gender would likely dictate to a point.. But where our intelligence arrives, the physical aspects that separate a man's strength from a woman's becomes irrelevant.
In today's world, physical strength and manliness does nothing for success unless you're a professional fighter or sportsman. And we've even got women's fighting and sports leagues. The classic limitations society has put on gender is no longer applicable. The only thing that remains is bias that's remnant of the past.

Oh, of course, I never meant to imply I'm special, or have something that hasn't been had before. I was just simply stating that I don't feel I fit into the stereotypical male frame, which in turn makes me question how much gender roles are simply influenced by society.

I agree about the homemakers bit too. Though I can't say I would be one to look down upon them, I can see a lot of people doing so.

I'm sorry about the assumption. My bad on that.

Hehe I didn't mean it that way. I'm exactly like you are. Nothing special, and for all we know, probably normal in comparison to the crazy *******s we see on a day to day basis.

Double post

Absolutely.


The original post goes back to the book thread.

Do you get where I'm coming from? I'm trying to respond to everyone and haven't had time to go over my posts, spell check, and see if my stuff is too colloquial. I have no idea if what I've said makes sense.

Likewise. It gets a little hectic.
Plus I'm drunk. lol

Edit:
But yea, I see what you're saying now and I agree. The forced attempt at reversing gender roles is more of a fad than a true knowledge of the fact that the only reason there are boundaries is because of a social opinion. Not that flipping the roles does any good, but knowing they're just roles in the first place makes the whole play much more manageable. :)

I think a woman, to some extent, should be a caregiver for the family. It's sort of the biological initiative, is it not? I'm not going to object to a woman working in ANY job, but if she's doing so to be a liberated woman, while not giving enough time to her children because of it, I sort of see that as wrong. Though the same could be said for a father, to a much lesser extent IMO

I prolly look like a big ol' sexist now, lol

what happened to "civil rights" these days

what happened to thinking before you talked these days

what happened to verb tense agreement these days

what happened to peopel that actually try NOT to be douche bags?

i just woke up,....and would love to get in on this conversation,....but i have way to much to get done in the next few hours to go through my 'women's lib has ruined the country',....i'll be back later though

Why should it be to a lesser extent for men? If you're comparing single fathers to single mothers who work, then their situations are the same and they should care for their child the same.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

gotta love the homogeneous society we live in wooo

If by lib you mean liberalism I'm assuming you're talking about feminism. In which case I'm now interested Miss Limbaugh.

I believe nobody should be given a role to play in their life. They themselves should decide how they want to go about their business.

I see what you are talking about. It seems that most people are denying the whole 'woman at home, man at work' thing just because it has become the norm not to follow that stereotype, not because they believe that one shouldn't have to conform to a certain lifestyle just because of their sex. Its the same thing with so many other things. They don't belive in more progressive idea because they actually think, they just follow the standard that has been set by society.

I think it means a male acting like society's standard for what a male is suppose to be. Say a male is kind of the leader of the household, makes the rules, makes decisions, goes to work and makes the money. Many fathers aren't doing that because they are most capable for doing this because they have good leadership skills and a great job, but simply because they are trying to live up to society's expectations of what a man is suppose to be. The same goes for women.

I'd just like to say that I pluck my eyebrows, mainly because I don't want to look like Brežnjev, and neither should you (wish to look like Brežnjev that is), no matter what your testosterone level is. But I take it up the ass so I have no expectations of masculinity to uphold.

Carry on. :|

Some men might be more sensitive then others, either way they are men. In some species the female is dominate, however with humans the male is.

The male is usually larger and most always stronger unless the female takes some form of testosterone to increase muscle mass/overall size. Men are not hindered by pregnancy among other things. Either way men have always been the ones to go out and catch the dinner with their spears.. Now that spear is money.

Women have been the caring nurturing type since the beginning of time. They tend to the baby and have the natural ability to feed the child as well. They are the less dominate in the human species, they are the ones that need to survive, to continue to raise the children, while the males job is to protect them.

Now its different, it is more competitive with the modern worlds resources. In the modern world you have daycare (notice its predominately women working there) and similac among other things... These items free up the woman from her natural responsibilities and allow her to be productive else where. You can see where i am going with this so I will end here..