Gender Roles (ticket, house, single, incomes, quote)

khfreek · 04-05-2009, 12:55 AM

I guess to be fair I'll reply with what I would've posted, if only for a good debate...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog

I think Ethan was right to ask what you mean here by "evolution." The implication is that something naturally happened to prevent women from working, and that it wasn't a man made construct. By implying that alone you're going to piss people off so if you didn't mean it was natural rephrase, and if you did, state why.

It would appear that women are, in general, weaker and smaller than men, for the simple reason that the male was the hunter-gatherer who provided for the family, while the mother cared for the children, which might explain why women in general are less aggressive than men.

Quote:

If a woman joins the work force, how (and we'll need specifics here) are men or children suffering?

I was going on the assumption that children needed a female caregiver in their life as part of their development, but after looking for evidence to support this I realized kids are fine with males as well. The man might suffer because most guys I know wouldn't like to raise kids in stead of their wife, a subtle sexism I guess might still be pervading the cultural psyche.

Quote:

As for how natural it feels to raise a child, thats got more to do with the person and their upbringing than it does with nature. Some people find children to be a burden, some love the idea of teaching children.

Absolutely right, I would've been stumped by this

TheBig3 · 04-05-2009, 01:02 AM

Men are more aggressive generally because of testosterone and because their more emotional (anger is an emotion) but regardless of what our base hormone does for us, entering the workforce, i think you'd admit, has little to do with it.

Being a tax accountant or a CEO has nothing to do with strength.

And it isn't sexism that your friends would rather have their wife raise their kids, thats their preference, it doesn't however make it natural. Its likely because their lazy or didn't know what they were getting into.

I'd draw a sharper line between observations and what is inherent, thats my 2 cents.

~~The Unfan~~ · 04-05-2009, 05:12 PM

Strong willed independent women are the sexiest. I'd gladly be the bitch in a relationship any day.

davidMC1982 · 04-05-2009, 05:20 PM

I'm sure most can agree that there is, in modern society, no practical reason for gender roles to exist. In the modern workplace there a very few positions that are gender specific. Equally, in the modern home, there are very few tasks (none perhaps) that are gender specific. In biological terms women have certain advantages when it comes to raising children, but again, none that cannot be overcome in the modern world. I think it is evident that any gender roles that do still exist are a hangup from previous times and are slowly eroding.

I am, however, concerned at the modern worlds notion of equality. Too often we hear statements such as "it takes two to make a baby" yet most forget the logical follow on, "but one to abort". As a society, do we have to accept a certain level of inequality? If a woman has the sole right to abort (and I think she should), should the father not have the practical equivalent; the option to absolve legal responsibility prior to birth?

Others here have commented on being a "career woman". Where do such women stand with regards to equality in the workplace? How equal do they want things to be? In the UK, women have 52 weeks statutory maternity leave, 39 weeks paid. Men have 2 weeks unpaid (unless certain conditions are met). How do career women who have no desire to raise children feel about other women having the option to drop their career for 52 weeks and pick-up where they left off? Does that sound like equality? My personal position would be to scrap both maternity and paternity leave, but if we have to have it, at least make it an either or (one of either parents can take it).

Where do people draw the line when it comes to gender discrimination? Is it OK to employ an attractive female salesperson purely because she would predominantly be selling to men and will therefore be more likely to make a sale? To me that is practical, to others, gender discrimination. Is it OK to pay a woman less because of the possible costs incurred owing to current maternity laws? The law says no, but it also says equal pay for the same job. To me, the possibility of 52 weeks leave makes the job different. Would it be wrong, on a moral level, for me to employ a PA based only on gender and attractiveness? I'd like to think I had the business sense to employ the best person for the job, but is it society's right to tell me I cannot use other criteria?

In summary, I'm 100% behind equality but only if followed to its conclusion. Further, I believe gender roles to be redundant although obviously still prevalent. I also believe the law should never treat men and women differently and at the moment, it clearly does. This whole topic of gender roles/discrimination/differences is more complex than most accept.

Finally, I think khfreek should be commended for his honesty. I'm sure there are many out there who have a nagging suspicion that women are more naturally suited to raising children than men. I would say, they are equally capable but not necessarily equally inclined. Whether this is because of societal pressures or genetic differences I don't know.

Dave

**Scarlett O'Hara** · 04-06-2009, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unfan

Strong willed independent women are the sexiest. I'd gladly be the bitch in a relationship any day.

Double X · 04-06-2009, 11:15 AM

Me too, if my wife was wealthy, I'd love to be a house husband. I know it's not easy, but it would be so nice to work in my own house and cook all the meals without worrying about profits for a buisness or something.

TheBig3 · 04-06-2009, 04:01 PM

Well the idea that men should be breadwinners isn't just a sexism that hurts women.

If you think its not a huge burden on men then you've never fought for your meals in the real world. The struggles of men in a society where the patriarchy is dying and severe but no one gives a **** because some men own a lot of land and have money.

I'm in a relationship where my girlfriend probably makes close to $14K more than i do. You're made to feel like less of a man, because society has tied your paycheck in with your penis.

in Japan at one point (and I've heard this, i don't know) a man who couldn't support his family was to go out and drown them. i'm sure that wasn't a ****ing cake walk either. Granted he was alive, but did you really want to murder people?

Yukon Cornelius · 04-07-2009, 12:53 PM

Let just see how signifigant these theories are..

#1. The male stays at home with the kids and the wife provides adequate income for both to feel comfortable but how do people look at that male and how does that male feel?(you can say society or media but I believe its mother nature) Hmm I think as much fun as it would be not to go to work I (most men) would eventually feel less than the average man.

#2 The female stays at home with the kids and the husband provides adequate income for both to feel comfortable, the woman is looked at as a caring nurturing individual and the father is considered the bread winner and nobody feels less than, that would probabaly because its natural.

#3 Both the male and the female go to work to provide more than average income for there family (not always the case) and place there child in a day care facility so someone else can have a bigger impact there lives (while there still young of course) than there own mother or father. Its funny how every one seems to think this is the ticket. Oh and if you cant survive off one of your incomes, its probably not time to bring anyone else in to your F-ed situation.

Solution?

Dont have kids if you dont want them... And don't work to provide for your greed. Work for your childrens survival like you were intended to do.

TheBig3 · 04-07-2009, 02:15 PM

How often have you worked with children Yukon?

I personally did it for 6 years, intermixed were kids who paid to come and kids who were court ordered to come as they had become wards of the state.

The only impact afterschool care is going to have on your child is a societal one that they were going to get anyway. I'm a huge proponent of ASC because it prevents them from being sheltered "my kids craps ice cream" mentality that accompnies all the ought-born children.

daycare and asc don't prevent parents from reading to them before they go to bed or taking them to the playground on weekends. It doesn't prevent talking to the kids or preventing family road trips.

I think its more ****ed up to try and live some idealized version of what parents should do and not have enough money than it is to go out and have them live in the real world for awhile.

Yukon Cornelius · 04-07-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog

How often have you worked with children Yukon?

I personally did it for 6 years, intermixed were kids who paid to come and kids who were court ordered to come as they had become wards of the state.

The only impact afterschool care is going to have on your child is a societal one that they were going to get anyway. I'm a huge proponent of ASC because it prevents them from being sheltered "my kids craps ice cream" mentality that accompnies all the ought-born children.

daycare and asc don't prevent parents from reading to them before they go to bed or taking them to the playground on weekends. It doesn't prevent talking to the kids or preventing family road trips.

I think its more ****ed up to try and live some idealized version of what parents should do and not have enough money than it is to go out and have them live in the real world for awhile.

I have 3 kids..

Its not all about reading to them before they go to bed or taking them to the playground on the weekends.. There is a ton more to do than that. You are the Dad and Mom, the protector the comforter the best woman/man in the world to your kids. Notice how children act when mommy dumps them off at some crappy day care on top of that, the fact that there sick all the time. I feel that its one thing if there a single parent with a child but if you could potentially stay at home and raise your own kids, or go to a job to further add to your gluten lifestyle, you should raise your own damn kids.

04-05-2009, 01:02 AM	#142 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	Men are more aggressive generally because of testosterone and because their more emotional (anger is an emotion) but regardless of what our base hormone does for us, entering the workforce, i think you'd admit, has little to do with it. Being a tax accountant or a CEO has nothing to do with strength. And it isn't sexism that your friends would rather have their wife raise their kids, thats their preference, it doesn't however make it natural. Its likely because their lazy or didn't know what they were getting into. I'd draw a sharper line between observations and what is inherent, thats my 2 cents. __________________ I've moved to a new address

04-06-2009, 04:01 PM	#147 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	Well the idea that men should be breadwinners isn't just a sexism that hurts women. If you think its not a huge burden on men then you've never fought for your meals in the real world. The struggles of men in a society where the patriarchy is dying and severe but no one gives a ** because some men own a lot of land and have money. I'm in a relationship where my girlfriend probably makes close to $14K more than i do. You're made to feel like less of a man, because society has tied your paycheck in with your penis. in Japan at one point (and I've heard this, i don't know) a man who couldn't support his family was to go out and drown them. i'm sure that wasn't a *ing cake walk either. Granted he was alive, but did you really want* to murder people? __________________ I've moved to a new address

04-07-2009, 12:53 PM	#148 (permalink)
Yukon Cornelius Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 625	Let just see how signifigant these theories are.. #1. The male stays at home with the kids and the wife provides adequate income for both to feel comfortable but how do people look at that male and how does that male feel?(you can say society or media but I believe its mother nature) Hmm I think as much fun as it would be not to go to work I (most men) would eventually feel less than the average man. #2 The female stays at home with the kids and the husband provides adequate income for both to feel comfortable, the woman is looked at as a caring nurturing individual and the father is considered the bread winner and nobody feels less than, that would probabaly because its natural. #3 Both the male and the female go to work to provide more than average income for there family (not always the case) and place there child in a day care facility so someone else can have a bigger impact there lives (while there still young of course) than there own mother or father. Its funny how every one seems to think this is the ticket. Oh and if you cant survive off one of your incomes, its probably not time to bring anyone else in to your F-ed situation. Solution? Dont have kids if you dont want them... And don't work to provide for your greed. Work for your childrens survival like you were intended to do. __________________ Attempting to find a cure for Stupid...

04-07-2009, 02:15 PM	#149 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	How often have you worked with children Yukon? I personally did it for 6 years, intermixed were kids who paid to come and kids who were court ordered to come as they had become wards of the state. The only impact afterschool care is going to have on your child is a societal one that they were going to get anyway. I'm a huge proponent of ASC because it prevents them from being sheltered "my kids craps ice cream" mentality that accompnies all the ought-born children. daycare and asc don't prevent parents from reading to them before they go to bed or taking them to the playground on weekends. It doesn't prevent talking to the kids or preventing family road trips. I think its more ****ed up to try and live some idealized version of what parents should do and not have enough money than it is to go out and have them live in the real world for awhile. __________________ I've moved to a new address

04-05-2009, 05:12 PM	#143 (permalink)
~~The Unfan~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Methville Posts: 2,116	Strong willed independent women are the sexiest. I'd gladly be the bitch in a relationship any day.

04-05-2009, 05:20 PM	#144 (permalink)
davidMC1982 Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Sussex, UK Posts: 90	I'm sure most can agree that there is, in modern society, no practical reason for gender roles to exist. In the modern workplace there a very few positions that are gender specific. Equally, in the modern home, there are very few tasks (none perhaps) that are gender specific. In biological terms women have certain advantages when it comes to raising children, but again, none that cannot be overcome in the modern world. I think it is evident that any gender roles that do still exist are a hangup from previous times and are slowly eroding. I am, however, concerned at the modern worlds notion of equality. Too often we hear statements such as "it takes two to make a baby" yet most forget the logical follow on, "but one to abort". As a society, do we have to accept a certain level of inequality? If a woman has the sole right to abort (and I think she should), should the father not have the practical equivalent; the option to absolve legal responsibility prior to birth? Others here have commented on being a "career woman". Where do such women stand with regards to equality in the workplace? How equal do they want things to be? In the UK, women have 52 weeks statutory maternity leave, 39 weeks paid. Men have 2 weeks unpaid (unless certain conditions are met). How do career women who have no desire to raise children feel about other women having the option to drop their career for 52 weeks and pick-up where they left off? Does that sound like equality? My personal position would be to scrap both maternity and paternity leave, but if we have to have it, at least make it an either or (one of either parents can take it). Where do people draw the line when it comes to gender discrimination? Is it OK to employ an attractive female salesperson purely because she would predominantly be selling to men and will therefore be more likely to make a sale? To me that is practical, to others, gender discrimination. Is it OK to pay a woman less because of the possible costs incurred owing to current maternity laws? The law says no, but it also says equal pay for the same job. To me, the possibility of 52 weeks leave makes the job different. Would it be wrong, on a moral level, for me to employ a PA based only on gender and attractiveness? I'd like to think I had the business sense to employ the best person for the job, but is it society's right to tell me I cannot use other criteria? In summary, I'm 100% behind equality but only if followed to its conclusion. Further, I believe gender roles to be redundant although obviously still prevalent. I also believe the law should never treat men and women differently and at the moment, it clearly does. This whole topic of gender roles/discrimination/differences is more complex than most accept. Finally, I think khfreek should be commended for his honesty. I'm sure there are many out there who have a nagging suspicion that women are more naturally suited to raising children than men. I would say, they are equally capable but not necessarily equally inclined. Whether this is because of societal pressures or genetic differences I don't know. Dave

04-06-2009, 11:15 AM	#146 (permalink)
Double X sleepe Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: boston Posts: 1,140	Me too, if my wife was wealthy, I'd love to be a house husband. I know it's not easy, but it would be so nice to work in my own house and cook all the meals without worrying about profits for a buisness or something.