Physical discipline against children .. okay or not? (alternative, single, American)

Seltzer · 03-17-2009, 05:33 PM

My parents weren't hard on my brother and I, especially considering what little shits we could be from time to time. The main forms of punishments were scolding and the wooden spoon treatment... although the latter didn't work too well when we scoured the house of wooden spoons and snapped them in half.

I wouldn't say physical discipline is necessarily required in the upbringing of a child, but it perhaps might be if they're the more unruly defiant sort or in more serious cases of disobedience. Provided that physical discipline entails nothing more serious than a spanking or slap on the wrists, I don't see any problem with it. Having said that, I doubt I'd use physical discipline myself if I had children.

So do you have a biological perspective on this Tore? Parent/child discipline in the animal kingdom could provide additional insight. And I'm still waiting for David and Lee's response to this.

Guybrush · 03-17-2009, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seltzer

So do you have a biological perspective on this Tore? Parent/child discipline in the animal kingdom could provide additional insight.

I think violence against our loved ones is definetly an act of the caveman. Lots of animals do it too. And, as I posted earlier, we learn it from our parents. By smacking your own children, you also greatly increase the chance that they in turn will smack your grandchildren etc. etc. Somewhere down the line, it might have negative consequences greater than it had for you or your children.

By the way, I'm a little surprised at all the posters who still seem to think of physical punishment as the only option when it comes to introducing negative consequences for actions. Think about it - shouldn't there be good alternatives? There are, just turn on the TV one day and have a look. I'm also surprised that noone has made any comments about the overall effect of corporal punishment on society .. I believe I quoted and posted some links to some interesting scientific articles on studies relating to this back on the first page.

So far, 80% of everyone (15 people) who has voted think that corporal punishment is an acceptable way of disciplining children.

mr dave · 03-17-2009, 08:02 PM

like most other older members here i was physically disciplined as a child. it was NOT abuse. i was physically abused once, there is a clear difference between discipline and abuse.

it's been said earlier in the thread, it seems people who want to see physical discipline eliminated aren't advocating any sort of valid solution; only to replace the physical aspect with emotional. it's like celebrating someone becoming an alcoholic instead of a junkie, is one really better than the other?

a small child understands pain, it's a black and white thing. it either hurts or it doesn't. if you do something bad it will hurt therefore don't do it again. eventually the reasoning becomes self evident.

i don't think emotional discipline really works as well since it's really hard to know where the line between discipline and abuse is. a smack on the backside vs. a fist in the face is pretty effing clear no? on the other hand having a parent screaming 'stop being an idiot' is only going to reinforce the child's belief that they're stupid. ever see the look on a 3 year olds face when some 'educated' parent is berating them with university level vocabulary? worthless.

it's not that one is better than the other but that they need to be recognized as parenting tools made to work together. might not hurt to offer more parenting classes considering the state of modern families too.

dac · 03-17-2009, 09:51 PM

I got spanked when I did really bad things as a child, and I think it was a good thing.

Schredds · 03-17-2009, 10:04 PM

I think the lack of punishment from parents unto their children in this day an age has created children and young adults that have no morals and no ****ing respect for anything or anyone, kids nowadays are running wild and doing anything they want because they know there isnt going to be any reprocussions. I think parents should spank their kids if they are getting out of line and instill a lil bit of healthy fear in them, just to remind them that life isnt a free ride and that you cant get away with anything and that they need to learn a little bit of respect. My parents spanked me and I am perfectly fine with that. Alot of parents nowadays have no balls whatsoever and are scared that their kids wont love them or respect them if they spank them or punish them, which is absolutely ass backwards, raising a child in my opinion is alot like raising a dog, if you let the dog do whatever it want and never punish or give it a smack for stepping out of line what do you think is going to happen??? Exactley, the dog is going to piss and **** all over the floor, tear up you furniture and get into everything it is not supposed. Now, parent that beat their kids and abuse their kids, thats a whole different story, that is completely unacceptable, and they should pay BIG TIME for that type of behavior.

Roygbiv · 03-17-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dac

I got spanked when I did really bad things as a child, and I think it was a good thing.

I second that motion. I would never be able to hurt my kids physically, though. I can't hurt anyone, period. But sometimes kids need their spanking.

adidasss · 03-18-2009, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss

Not a word from the parents? Is their silence louder than words..?

Apologies for this post to any parent. It occurred to me last night that it was very brattish. I know nothing of real life...

Guybrush · 03-18-2009, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schredds

I think the lack of punishment from parents unto their children in this day an age has created children and young adults that have no morals and no ****ing respect for anything or anyone, kids nowadays are running wild and doing anything they want because they know there isnt going to be any reprocussions. I think parents should spank their kids if they are getting out of line and instill a lil bit of healthy fear in them, just to remind them that life isnt a free ride and that you cant get away with anything and that they need to learn a little bit of respect.

Ah, that explains why I have no morale, no respect and don't understand consequences for my actions. I should've been slapped more as a kid. Thanks for making sense of it for me.

Seriously, rarely have I ever felt so ignored in a thread. Is anyone reading posts here? Noone has responded to a single point I've made in this thread so far.

For example, I posted a thread on scientific studies describing the effect of corporal punishment on society. One of them suggests that corporal punishment can lead to and raises probability of other kinds of violence later in life, such as marital violence against spouses. You can learn violent behaviour from your parents and then learn that it's a way to force control on people. They pass on the tool.

If you want a society with minimal violence, not just against children, then eliminating the physical punishment practice will most likely have a beneficial effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

I found a very interesting article describing the consequences of the ban in Sweden.

Quote:

Evaluating the success of sweden’s corporal punishment ban

Abstract

Objective: In 1979, Sweden became the first nation to explicitly prohibit all forms of corporal punishment of children by all caretakers in an effort to: (1) alter public attitudes toward this practice; (2) increase early identification of children at risk for abuse; and (3) promote earlier and more supportive intervention to families. The aim of this study was to examine trends over recent decades in these areas to assess the degree to which these goals have been met.

Method: Primary data were collected from official Swedish sources for the following variables: public support for corporal punishment, reporting of child physical assault, child abuse mortality, prosecution rates, and intervention by the social authorities. Lines of best fit were generated and Cox and Stuart tests for trend were conducted.

Results: Public support for corporal punishment has declined, identification of children at risk has increased, child abuse mortality is rare, prosecution rates have remained steady, and social service intervention has become increasingly supportive and preventive.

Conclusions: The Swedish ban has been highly successful in accomplishing its goals.

Read the whole thing here if you want -> link to article.

Other than that, this article from a study done in New Zealand confirms that severe corporal punishment increases risk for juvenile offenses, substance abuse, mental health problems, suicide etc. However, since it deals with harsh punishment, probably harsher than the average, it's not that surprising and maybe not completely relevant. However, a ban on corporal punishment could help these victims too, so it is somewhat relevant even if they are a minority.

This article describes a link between physical punishment events in childhood and marital violence and aggression later in life. It suggests that elimination of corporal punishment can reduce some of the psychological and social processes that increase likelyhood of violence against spouses and possibly other forms of violence.

I see most people believe to a varying degree that a society without violence towards kids really means a society with no respect, no morale, no grasp of consequence. Sorry guys, I try to be respectful, but that just seems incredibly stupid to me.

As I wrote before, there are other ways of bringing up your children that has just as good if not better results than corporal punishment and they won't teach your kids that violence against children is justified. That's a lesson a lot of people learn from their parents and I think it's principally wrong, even if it's just a rare, quick slap.

mr dave · 03-18-2009, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

As I wrote before, there are other ways of bringing up your children that has just as good if not better results than corporal punishment and they won't teach your kids that violence against children is justified. That's a lesson a lot of people learn from their parents and I think it's principally wrong, even if it's just a rare, quick slap.

i don't disagree but at this point you're basically talking about revamping western parenthood in general and not just the disciplinary method. again, i'm not disagreeing with you hehehe

SATCHMO · 03-18-2009, 04:04 AM

I think one has to differentiate between physical discipline and physical abuse, and there are some factors that differentiate the two.
For one abuse is done out of anger and in a state of mind where the disciplining parent is not in control of their mind and subsequently their judgement. A parent physically lashing out at their child violently out of anger is unacceptable. No exceptions.
Hwever their are instances where physical discipline, emphasis on the word discipline is acceptable, especially in very early childhood situations (toddlers) where its not easy to verbally communicate crucial messages that a child needs to understand relevant to how their actions affect their own safety. That being said, I think its safe to say that at least 95% of the physical discipline that is issued by parents is really abuse. The question is Does the parent have self control?, and more importantly are the actions done with the immediate intention of benefiting the child and the parents genuine concern for the child's well being? Most of the time, unfortunately, the answer to that question is "no".

View Poll Results: Physical punishment aganist children. Acceptable or Unacceptable?
Acceptable	50	56.82%
Unacceptable	38	43.18%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

03-17-2009, 05:33 PM	#41 (permalink)
Seltzer Fish in the percolator! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Hobbit Land NZ Posts: 2,870	My parents weren't hard on my brother and I, especially considering what little shits we could be from time to time. The main forms of punishments were scolding and the wooden spoon treatment... although the latter didn't work too well when we scoured the house of wooden spoons and snapped them in half. I wouldn't say physical discipline is necessarily required in the upbringing of a child, but it perhaps might be if they're the more unruly defiant sort or in more serious cases of disobedience. Provided that physical discipline entails nothing more serious than a spanking or slap on the wrists, I don't see any problem with it. Having said that, I doubt I'd use physical discipline myself if I had children. So do you have a biological perspective on this Tore? Parent/child discipline in the animal kingdom could provide additional insight. And I'm still waiting for David and Lee's response to this. __________________ In the Court of King Crimson \| Last.fm \| RYM

03-17-2009, 09:51 PM	#44 (permalink)
dac MB's Biggest Fanboy Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land Posts: 2,852	I got spanked when I did really bad things as a child, and I think it was a good thing. __________________

03-17-2009, 10:04 PM	#45 (permalink)
Schredds Special K Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 198	I think the lack of punishment from parents unto their children in this day an age has created children and young adults that have no morals and no **ing respect for anything or anyone, kids nowadays are running wild and doing anything they want because they know there isnt going to be any reprocussions. I think parents should spank their kids if they are getting out of line and instill a lil bit of healthy fear in them, just to remind them that life isnt a free ride and that you cant get away with anything and that they need to learn a little bit of respect. My parents spanked me and I am perfectly fine with that. Alot of parents nowadays have no balls whatsoever and are scared that their kids wont love them or respect them if they spank them or punish them, which is absolutely ass backwards, raising a child in my opinion is alot like raising a dog, if you let the dog do whatever it want and never punish or give it a smack for stepping out of line what do you think is going to happen??? Exactley, the dog is going to piss and ** all over the floor, tear up you furniture and get into everything it is not supposed. Now, parent that beat their kids and abuse their kids, thats a whole different story, that is completely unacceptable, and they should pay BIG TIME for that type of behavior.

03-18-2009, 04:04 AM	#50 (permalink)
SATCHMO Al Dente Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,708	I think one has to differentiate between physical discipline and physical abuse, and there are some factors that differentiate the two. For one abuse is done out of anger and in a state of mind where the disciplining parent is not in control of their mind and subsequently their judgement. A parent physically lashing out at their child violently out of anger is unacceptable. No exceptions. Hwever their are instances where physical discipline, emphasis on the word discipline is acceptable, especially in very early childhood situations (toddlers) where its not easy to verbally communicate crucial messages that a child needs to understand relevant to how their actions affect their own safety. That being said, I think its safe to say that at least 95% of the physical discipline that is issued by parents is really abuse. The question is Does the parent have self control?, and more importantly are the actions done with the immediate intention of benefiting the child and the parents genuine concern for the child's well being? Most of the time, unfortunately, the answer to that question is "no".