Physical discipline against children .. okay or not? (albums, Tool, quote)

Molecules · 03-17-2009, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

I only remember getting smacked on the hand once, which is trivial, and I'm thankful for that. Aside from that one incident, my parents never tried to force or scare me into obedience.

haha if only English kids were so good! I can't find the link but there was an article recently in BBC News, some professional or other warning that schools/parents are raising a generation of narcissists with a 'me,me,me' mentality, and there are an unprecedented amount of complaints from parents when their children don't get perfect marks on their spelling test etc.

I wonder if the parents this 'warning' is leveled at advocate mild physical punishment in extreme cases? It's almost certain that my parents' generation (for whom there was never any question of getting a smack if you took the piss) are on average more willing to smack their kids than new parents today.

One of the arguments against smacking seems to be that it makes your child develop an aggression complex; if that's the case in today's society where less and less kids are being punished this way then why did the UK government feel the need to introduce ASBO's (anti-social behaviour orders) for an increasingly materialistic and violent youth?
It's a tabloid cliche I know, there have always been binge drinkers (another hot topic in the UK tabloids right now) and anti-social kids but I'm basing it more on statistics I have read and my parents' memories growing up, and how things have changed according to them (rose-tinted nostalgia and senility are accounted for

).

It's important to remember that ultraviolence in everyday entertainment and culture in general is totally acceptable nowadays, and there are entire genres of music that are paean to the false gangster culture - these are all going to have an additional affect on kids today, children have been smacked forever I haven't seen any substantial evidence that it turns them into raving psychopaths

adidasss · 03-17-2009, 08:19 AM

I don't think it should be a question of whether it causes any long-term effects. It should be about the basic evolution of human empathy and the unwillingness to inflict unnecessary pain on others. :\

MoonlitSunshine · 03-17-2009, 08:26 AM

Personally I think it should always be allowed, but as with many, many things, it only works and is acceptable in moderation.

If you snot your kid with a frying pan every time he/she makes a mistake, all they'll learn is a fear of making mistakes, and will grow up emotionally scarred, which of course is not desirable.

However, if on the other hand you're never allowed smack your kids, what do you do if you have an obnoxious prat who won't do anything you say? Physical pain is a great ultimatum: a short spanking for a very, very bad deed or consistent brattishness is effective, not emotionally scarring, and above all prevents your child from turning out like and arrogant self-possessed obnoxious I-can-do-whatever-I-want-and-you-can't-stop-me kid; possibly the most annoying people on the planet.

I do agree though that regular use isn't good, like shouting at your kids "If you do that again I'll kill you!" What's the point? they know you won't, and you can't follow through on the threat, so they just ignore it.

Physical punishment is a last resort when every attempt at reasoning has failed, and coupled with consistency and sensible, regular rules, noone should ever really have to spank their child more than five, ten times in their lives.

Molecules · 03-17-2009, 08:27 AM

so you're saying that all the billions and billions of parents who's hands have made abrupt contact with their children's bottoms over thousands of years have no empathy towards them? I mean we're talking about discipline here, no good parent/person enjoys it but life is full of hard f*cking lessons. You seem to be implying that you'd only smack your kids for some sadistic reason, surely you can see the long term benefits in it with a particularly unruly child? That's what respect is ultimately I guess, a balance of fear and love, that makes it sound bad but I always looked up to my dad. With some kids it just takes more until they get the message, with me it was the 15 or so smacks I ever received, for toretorden is was that bat on the hand and a few stern words I'm sure.
These are just the basics or raising a child

edit: this was in response to Marijan's post!

Guybrush · 03-17-2009, 08:38 AM

I tend to think in more holistic terms and not focus so much on the individuals. I think society might improve for everyone in it if the practice is eliminated because - and now I'm only scratching the surface - those who would otherwise be beaten might be happier if only for the amount of time they'd otherwise spend getting beaten, they might be less aggressive / less criminal on average and in turn cause less problems for other people in society.

Violence leads to many things. It may cause conformity in difficult children, but is that all? The studies I posted a couple of posts back indicate that there are negative effects on society from corporal punishment.

I was a good boy, but I was a rather difficult teenager, believe it or not.

If my parents wanted to prohibit me from doing something, I'd ignore them or do it without them knowing about it. Then and now, if anyone tries to force me into anything, I get fiercely defensive and I've been like that since I was a toddler. Had I get smacked around more, I think maybe it would just add fuel to the fire that was my frustrations and anger directed at my parents when I was a young teenager. It's hard for me to say, though.

However, I still think I've turned out well without smacking and I think my upbringing is an example that corporal punishment is not needed. Not where I come from anyways. I consider myself a productive and functionally sound member of society.

edit :

About the "me, me, me" mentality, I think I see it here too and I'm not sure what it comes from. I guess maybe the increase in freedom and material goods. Remember however that raising someone without corporal punishment doesn't mean there are not other ways of punishing children. Indeed, I believe you do need negative consequences for negative actions, but I believe you can use stuff like "timeouts" instead of slaps.

adidasss · 03-17-2009, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molecules

so you're saying that all the billions and billions of parents who's hands have made abrupt contact with their children's bottoms over thousands of years have no empathy towards them? I mean we're talking about discipline here, no good parent/person enjoys it but life is full of hard f*cking lessons. You seem to be implying that you'd only smack your kids for some sadistic reason, surely you can see the long term benefits in it with a particularly unruly child? That's what respect is ultimately I guess, a balance of fear and love, that makes it sound bad but I always looked up to my dad. With some kids it just takes more until they get the message, with me it was the 15 or so smacks I ever received, for toretorden is was that bat on the hand and a few stern words I'm sure.
These are just the basics or raising a child

edit: this was in response to Marijan's post!

No, I didn't say they don't have empathy, they just don't have enough of it.

I really don't see anything desirable in inflicting pain on others, even if it is slight. Resorting to it just means that reason has failed, and that's always a sad thing. And as those supernanny shows prove, it is quite possible to discipline even the worst of children without resorting to violence.

And I definitely don't agree with the justification that life's hard. Sure it is, but that's precisely why the family should be made a safe haven.

I dunno, maybe I shouldn't comment because I definitely don't come from anything resembling a healthy family and will never have children...

TheBig3 · 03-17-2009, 08:46 AM

I love how whenever we talk about this topic people always cite the most bizarre form of things....

I'm completly against standing children up behind mules and having them get kicked repeatedly because they didn't clean their room...

You can't ban guns because some idiots use them incorrectly, or cars and alcohol because certain folks can't use those right either.

Without a superego in place, or rationale on which to debate, options need to be presented. Half of smacking a kid on his ass is showing a disappointment on behalf of the guardians.

I know most of you guys are teens, but I work in a rich snobby region of the world where the kids here have absolutly no discipline and cry any time they can't get the smallest thing. I watch parents cave on a regular basis or try psychobable in the supermarket to have their children stop crying. Crying because they wanted to use the key to open the can or sardines, having no idea whats inside.

"You're not making mommy feel very good right now...

Thats a good plan. Reason with the three year old. In that situation, hitting the child is unneeded. What you ought to do is take them out to the car and go home. I genuinely beleive that kids should be in grocery stores to begin with, or church, or movies. But thats just me.

However, saying theres never a reason is not something I agree with.

FireInCairo · 03-17-2009, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss

I don't remember being beaten (as a small child) but I do know I was and am afraid of my father, and not without reason. I think it's the worst thing in the world to be afraid of your parents, they're the people who are supposed to protect you and make you safe, not the other way around. :\ That's why it's important to send a message out (because really, that's all it is, a message from the state, I mean it's not likely to get enforced rigorously) that there is no excuse for physical abuse.

This. Perfectly expressed.

Molecules · 03-17-2009, 08:55 AM

well you know I see your point but my parents, I thought always had too much empathy, i was emotionally smothered and i'm way over-sensitive and undisciplined myself. I've made it sound really bad, my dad wasn't slap-happy, and you're right there are probably ways around it (although i'd be reluctant to cite Supernanny, that show always seemed very heavily edited and questionable to me, you just know chaos resumed the second the 10-man film crew left)...
but you know back in the 80's if you did a survey of all the young parents and how they disciplined their kids how many of them would have had the time to spend 5 hours dragging their kids back to the naughty corner to co-erce them into behaving? Especially with a working mum? It's still force and it's still very physical.
It's all bollocks really. If I ever have kids (lololol) I would never hit them, but who knows the traumas that parenthood will bring? What if the little brats start complaining about me playing grime in the car? SMACK *jk*

To be honest none of us know sh*t, where's jackhammer and RT at?

edit: responding to marijan again

MoonlitSunshine · 03-17-2009, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireInCairo

This. Perfectly expressed.

That said, I was smacked, hit, if you want, thrown into a bath fully clothed for refusing to take a bath, all by my parents, and yet i get along great with them.

I don't think smacking your kids when they're being really obnoxious will cause all the things some of you are saying they will. Excessive beating, yes, but being hit when you repeatedly do something you're absolutely not allowed, and know it, yes, definitely.

View Poll Results: Physical punishment aganist children. Acceptable or Unacceptable?
Acceptable	50	56.82%
Unacceptable	38	43.18%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

03-17-2009, 08:19 AM	#12 (permalink)
adidasss Slavic gay sauce Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Abu Dhabi Posts: 7,993	I don't think it should be a question of whether it causes any long-term effects. It should be about the basic evolution of human empathy and the unwillingness to inflict unnecessary pain on others. :\ __________________ “Think of what a paradise this world would be if men were kind and wise.” - Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle. Last.fm

03-17-2009, 08:26 AM	#13 (permalink)
MoonlitSunshine Dat's Der Bunny! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ireland Posts: 1,088	Personally I think it should always be allowed, but as with many, many things, it only works and is acceptable in moderation. If you snot your kid with a frying pan every time he/she makes a mistake, all they'll learn is a fear of making mistakes, and will grow up emotionally scarred, which of course is not desirable. However, if on the other hand you're never allowed smack your kids, what do you do if you have an obnoxious prat who won't do anything you say? Physical pain is a great ultimatum: a short spanking for a very, very bad deed or consistent brattishness is effective, not emotionally scarring, and above all prevents your child from turning out like and arrogant self-possessed obnoxious I-can-do-whatever-I-want-and-you-can't-stop-me kid; possibly the most annoying people on the planet. I do agree though that regular use isn't good, like shouting at your kids "If you do that again I'll kill you!" What's the point? they know you won't, and you can't follow through on the threat, so they just ignore it. Physical punishment is a last resort when every attempt at reasoning has failed, and coupled with consistency and sensible, regular rules, noone should ever really have to spank their child more than five, ten times in their lives. __________________ "I found it eventually, at the bottom of a locker in a disused laboratory, with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard". Ever thought of going into Advertising?" - Arthur Dent

03-17-2009, 08:27 AM	#14 (permalink)
Molecules daddy don't Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: the Wastes Posts: 2,577	so you're saying that all the billions and billions of parents who's hands have made abrupt contact with their children's bottoms over thousands of years have no empathy towards them? I mean we're talking about discipline here, no good parent/person enjoys it but life is full of hard f*cking lessons. You seem to be implying that you'd only smack your kids for some sadistic reason, surely you can see the long term benefits in it with a particularly unruly child? That's what respect is ultimately I guess, a balance of fear and love, that makes it sound bad but I always looked up to my dad. With some kids it just takes more until they get the message, with me it was the 15 or so smacks I ever received, for toretorden is was that bat on the hand and a few stern words I'm sure. These are just the basics or raising a child edit: this was in response to Marijan's post! __________________ [SIZE="1"]Eff em tumble her

03-17-2009, 08:38 AM	#15 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	I tend to think in more holistic terms and not focus so much on the individuals. I think society might improve for everyone in it if the practice is eliminated because - and now I'm only scratching the surface - those who would otherwise be beaten might be happier if only for the amount of time they'd otherwise spend getting beaten, they might be less aggressive / less criminal on average and in turn cause less problems for other people in society. Violence leads to many things. It may cause conformity in difficult children, but is that all? The studies I posted a couple of posts back indicate that there are negative effects on society from corporal punishment. I was a good boy, but I was a rather difficult teenager, believe it or not. If my parents wanted to prohibit me from doing something, I'd ignore them or do it without them knowing about it. Then and now, if anyone tries to force me into anything, I get fiercely defensive and I've been like that since I was a toddler. Had I get smacked around more, I think maybe it would just add fuel to the fire that was my frustrations and anger directed at my parents when I was a young teenager. It's hard for me to say, though. However, I still think I've turned out well without smacking and I think my upbringing is an example that corporal punishment is not needed. Not where I come from anyways. I consider myself a productive and functionally sound member of society. edit : About the "me, me, me" mentality, I think I see it here too and I'm not sure what it comes from. I guess maybe the increase in freedom and material goods. Remember however that raising someone without corporal punishment doesn't mean there are not other ways of punishing children. Indeed, I believe you do need negative consequences for negative actions, but I believe you can use stuff like "timeouts" instead of slaps. __________________ Something Completely Different

03-17-2009, 08:46 AM	#17 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	I love how whenever we talk about this topic people always cite the most bizarre form of things.... I'm completly against standing children up behind mules and having them get kicked repeatedly because they didn't clean their room... You can't ban guns because some idiots use them incorrectly, or cars and alcohol because certain folks can't use those right either. Without a superego in place, or rationale on which to debate, options need to be presented. Half of smacking a kid on his ass is showing a disappointment on behalf of the guardians. I know most of you guys are teens, but I work in a rich snobby region of the world where the kids here have absolutly no discipline and cry any time they can't get the smallest thing. I watch parents cave on a regular basis or try psychobable in the supermarket to have their children stop crying. Crying because they wanted to use the key to open the can or sardines, having no idea whats inside. "You're not making mommy feel very good right now... Thats a good plan. Reason with the three year old. In that situation, hitting the child is unneeded. What you ought to do is take them out to the car and go home. I genuinely beleive that kids should be in grocery stores to begin with, or church, or movies. But thats just me. However, saying theres never a reason is not something I agree with. __________________ I've moved to a new address

03-17-2009, 08:55 AM	#19 (permalink)
Molecules daddy don't Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: the Wastes Posts: 2,577	well you know I see your point but my parents, I thought always had too much empathy, i was emotionally smothered and i'm way over-sensitive and undisciplined myself. I've made it sound really bad, my dad wasn't slap-happy, and you're right there are probably ways around it (although i'd be reluctant to cite Supernanny, that show always seemed very heavily edited and questionable to me, you just know chaos resumed the second the 10-man film crew left)... but you know back in the 80's if you did a survey of all the young parents and how they disciplined their kids how many of them would have had the time to spend 5 hours dragging their kids back to the naughty corner to co-erce them into behaving? Especially with a working mum? It's still force and it's still very physical. It's all bollocks really. If I ever have kids (lololol) I would never hit them, but who knows the traumas that parenthood will bring? What if the little brats start complaining about me playing grime in the car? SMACK jk To be honest none of us know sh*t, where's jackhammer and RT at? edit: responding to marijan again __________________ [SIZE="1"]Eff em tumble her