Ethics - What are yours like? (single, exploited, effect, show)

Guybrush · 02-11-2009, 04:12 AM

I was wondering ..

How do you guys see yourself in relation to morale and ethics? Do you consider yourself a moral being or not? Do follow abstract principles (f.ex act so that you minimize suffering/maximize happiness) or do you follow a morale that is more context-related (f.ex everyone else is full so it doesn't matter if I steal the last piece of cake)?

Supposedly, there are some trends - for example, women are supposed to be more contexty while men are supposed to be more abstract-ruly. It would be fun to see if any such trends will emerge. Also, although I doubt we'll get enough answers to determine that, there could be differences between nations.

You don't have to get too philosophical or too niched. I think everyone is aware that most who follow absolute rules will sometimes be a bit utilitarian or opportunistic and vice versa for the others. Just roughly try to describe yourself and explain your "rules" even if you don't follow them 100%.

I tend to follow absolute rules. Variations of the golden rule is what I sort of put on the highest pedestal. By that, I mean I believe we should behave in such a way that if everyone behaved that way, it would be best for everyone. As an example, I might say you shouldn't steal because if everyone stole, it would suck. If you don't want people to lie to you, you shouldn't lie to others .. and so on.

It is a rather community-minded way to think and I tend to think of living in a community as a sort of social contract. Being a part of a community is a privilege that is bestowed to you as long as you follow the rules of that community -> rules that help people live peacefully together. I think people who viciously break those rules should have their privelege revoked and be removed from the community .. And this is basically how it is all over the world, so nothing new here I guess.

Reading what I just wrote, I seem kind of strict and I guess I am, but I'm no absolute absolutist .. Many ethical challenges should be approached with a bit more context than what absolute rules allow for.

I'll add that I, unsurprisingly to most I'm sure, believe that morale very much comes from our biology and I also believe in selfishness. However, we're adapted to be social beings and by taking care of our fellow men and women, we are also taking care of our (unconcious) selfish interests. The best thing for social animals to do, thinking collectively, is to be nice to eachother. However, everyone being nice is easily exploited by selfish single individuals for even greater reward on the expense of everyone else, so you need some kind of system to deal with those exploiters.

(note that "selfish" is a term we use in biology that describes the biological urge to raise your own fitness - or rather, the fitness of your genes which will extend to close family whom you share genes with and possibly others whom your own fitness depends on.)

A bit more than I thought it would be. Anyone else?

iksosept · 02-11-2009, 05:26 AM

mmm. I guess I'm rather on the side of context-related morals.

Though I must say my social behavior follows certain principles. I can't help but mainly see the good in every one, so at first I'm always nice to everyone, and even when I'm dissapointed, I tend to still be nice. I don't know, call it naive or stupid, but that's how I am. Just because someone did something wrong I don't judge him/her for that really. I actually forget most of the things people did.
I've had plenty of discussions with my friends over that behavior in contrast with their behavior, as I have some friends who are over-critical towards others in my opinion.
They seem to have developed that behavior as reaction to being disappointed in the past on several occasions, which is understandable. I don't know, I think I just don't let people disappoint me, by never having too high expactations in people.
But in the end I'm not sure whether my behavior really fits with other people's feelings. I could imagine, that I have disappointed other people, because the way I talked to them could have made them expect me to be something I'm not, like their friend or something, where I just behaved in a nice way. Sounds mean and maybe selfish, but I can't help it really, I just would never interact with someone in a disrespectful way.

Other than that, I do behave context related, like I've stolen stuff a few times, but only in shops that seem to be well off, like H&M. I don't neccessarily follow that Golden Rule all the time. I know it's true, but I'm not that perfect. That's why there is a police, stuff like that. Of course, it would be perfect if we all lived by that Rule, but it will never happen.
So that's the occasions, where my disgust at people shines through. I like my friends, see the good in everyone. But in the end we are all animals. We think we're so much better, but we're not. Mankind has brought the worst to the world. Society's expectations are a burden for people who don't fit in perfectly. I love the individuals, but I hate them as a whole. So sometimes I feel the need to do something bad.

Another thing: I go voting, because it is my right and I should be thankful for that right. But on the other hand, the old problem: it's just 1 single vote, it doesn't matter really. And now don't start stuff like, but if everybody thought that way bla bla. Thing is, just because I think so, doesn't make ANY one else think so. I'd never try to convince people of that mindset, because I know THAT would have an effect.
So my conscience tells me: rather that vote yourself, you should go on the streets and tell everyone how important it is to vote. sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't. It's not even selfish, because by trying to convice people to vote I help the system. It's just hypocritical, but as I said, it's even of higher value if you compare the two. (Of course, a combination of both is the best)
But then again, I'm lazy

so my conscience tells me: you didn't go on the street, at least vote yourself.

EDIT: damn, that's a lot of text.. but it's an interesting topic. couldn't stop my thoughts from rushing up to me.

Guybrush · 02-11-2009, 05:45 AM

I don't think being quick to forgive/forget is necessarily naive. On the contrary, in biology, it is part of a very successful strategy for social animals ..

I think I would bore everyone if I start to explain why, but should you be interested, you can read about tit for tat and prisoner's dilemma on wikipedia. Game theory is used by biologists to explain evolution of certain behaviours, for example in relation to animals that live in cooperative societies.

Other than that, it seems to me that you base most of your moral decisions on a sort of "gut feeling", but that you consider yourself nice by nature. Is that a good description?

sleepy jack · 02-11-2009, 02:27 PM

Live and let live, man.

anticipation · 02-11-2009, 03:13 PM

i used to believe in nothing, now i believe in even less.

deep.

Terrible Lizard · 02-11-2009, 04:03 PM

Do as thou wilt, as long as "I" don't have to watch it.

I took Al's eternal message and modernized it.

dac · 02-11-2009, 06:40 PM

As cheesey as it is, the golden rule is really the way to go.

BoopieJones · 02-11-2009, 07:26 PM

I probably go by the whole "be yourself" thing. I try to be really honest and genuine to everyone, I try to trust them even though its not fully there. I never try to act or be someone else for acceptance. I am content with myself for that. Acceptance, open-mindedness, and forgiveness are all principles I practice and preach. However sometimes I try to adopt a more apathetic or cynical view, because I feel like I'm seen as too emotional by others. I feel I am too self absorbed in many ways. I feel I am too immature, and must act maturely. I feel frustrated when I don't think others are considering other people than themselves, or is being selfish. I don't like judgmental people, or pretentious people. I try not to be either of those. I deeply admire humility. I don't feel I practice that enough. I try to always lend a helping hand but I find myself to be EXTREMELY selfish when it comes to certain things. I hope selflessness comes easier as I mature and become less self absorbed.

I think selfishness = the root of all evil. Acceptance is the key to inner happiness. You should always forgive for you never know when you will need to be forgiven. You should always be sincere and genuine, then other people will not like you for someone they think you are rather than who you really are. You should have standards but low expectations of other people, so disappointment never hurts too much. You should never be smug, boastful, arrogant, or pretentious about your abilities. And, you should try to be as understanding as possible,so sometimes when you're a little too human, others around you will understand...

Kamikazi Kat · 02-12-2009, 12:52 AM

I don't really have any rules I follow, but I tend to be a moral person anyway.

I don't really have any sort of values that I absolutely must always follow, I just do what I believe is right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iksosept

mmm. I guess I'm rather on the side of context-related morals.

That describes me pretty well. I have trouble really explaining morales or ethnics because I always keep thinking "but what if this was the case" or something like that.

iksosept · 02-17-2009, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamikazi Kat

That describes me pretty well. I have trouble really explaining morales or ethnics because I always keep thinking "but what if this was the case" or something like that.

yeah right! hahaha
as hard as I want to have a strong convincement on every other topic sometimes, most of the times it results in some kind of back and forth reasoning inside my head, that leaves me all confused in the end..

I'd never be a good politician I guess. but I could imagine me to be a good host of discussions in general.

02-11-2009, 04:12 AM	#1 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Ethics - What are yours like? I was wondering .. How do you guys see yourself in relation to morale and ethics? Do you consider yourself a moral being or not? Do follow abstract principles (f.ex act so that you minimize suffering/maximize happiness) or do you follow a morale that is more context-related (f.ex everyone else is full so it doesn't matter if I steal the last piece of cake)? Supposedly, there are some trends - for example, women are supposed to be more contexty while men are supposed to be more abstract-ruly. It would be fun to see if any such trends will emerge. Also, although I doubt we'll get enough answers to determine that, there could be differences between nations. You don't have to get too philosophical or too niched. I think everyone is aware that most who follow absolute rules will sometimes be a bit utilitarian or opportunistic and vice versa for the others. Just roughly try to describe yourself and explain your "rules" even if you don't follow them 100%. I tend to follow absolute rules. Variations of the golden rule is what I sort of put on the highest pedestal. By that, I mean I believe we should behave in such a way that if everyone behaved that way, it would be best for everyone. As an example, I might say you shouldn't steal because if everyone stole, it would suck. If you don't want people to lie to you, you shouldn't lie to others .. and so on. It is a rather community-minded way to think and I tend to think of living in a community as a sort of social contract. Being a part of a community is a privilege that is bestowed to you as long as you follow the rules of that community -> rules that help people live peacefully together. I think people who viciously break those rules should have their privelege revoked and be removed from the community .. And this is basically how it is all over the world, so nothing new here I guess. Reading what I just wrote, I seem kind of strict and I guess I am, but I'm no absolute absolutist .. Many ethical challenges should be approached with a bit more context than what absolute rules allow for. I'll add that I, unsurprisingly to most I'm sure, believe that morale very much comes from our biology and I also believe in selfishness. However, we're adapted to be social beings and by taking care of our fellow men and women, we are also taking care of our (unconcious) selfish interests. The best thing for social animals to do, thinking collectively, is to be nice to eachother. However, everyone being nice is easily exploited by selfish single individuals for even greater reward on the expense of everyone else, so you need some kind of system to deal with those exploiters. (note that "selfish" is a term we use in biology that describes the biological urge to raise your own fitness - or rather, the fitness of your genes which will extend to close family whom you share genes with and possibly others whom your own fitness depends on.) A bit more than I thought it would be. Anyone else? __________________ Something Completely Different Last edited by Guybrush; 02-11-2009 at 04:18 AM.

02-11-2009, 05:45 AM	#3 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	I don't think being quick to forgive/forget is necessarily naive. On the contrary, in biology, it is part of a very successful strategy for social animals .. I think I would bore everyone if I start to explain why, but should you be interested, you can read about tit for tat and prisoner's dilemma on wikipedia. Game theory is used by biologists to explain evolution of certain behaviours, for example in relation to animals that live in cooperative societies. Other than that, it seems to me that you base most of your moral decisions on a sort of "gut feeling", but that you consider yourself nice by nature. Is that a good description? __________________ Something Completely Different Last edited by Guybrush; 02-11-2009 at 05:51 AM.

02-11-2009, 04:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
Terrible Lizard **ER OF HOLES Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Butt**, Nebraska Posts: 1,211	Do as thou wilt, as long as "I" don't have to watch it. I took Al's eternal message and modernized it. __________________ “YOU ARE SCUM SLUT.” -John Martyn Last edited by Terrible Lizard; 02-11-2009 at 09:01 PM.

02-11-2009, 06:40 PM	#7 (permalink)
dac MB's Biggest Fanboy Join Date: May 2008 Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land Posts: 2,852	As cheesey as it is, the golden rule is really the way to go. __________________

02-11-2009, 05:26 AM	#2 (permalink)
iksosept Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 104	mmm. I guess I'm rather on the side of context-related morals. Though I must say my social behavior follows certain principles. I can't help but mainly see the good in every one, so at first I'm always nice to everyone, and even when I'm dissapointed, I tend to still be nice. I don't know, call it naive or stupid, but that's how I am. Just because someone did something wrong I don't judge him/her for that really. I actually forget most of the things people did. I've had plenty of discussions with my friends over that behavior in contrast with their behavior, as I have some friends who are over-critical towards others in my opinion. They seem to have developed that behavior as reaction to being disappointed in the past on several occasions, which is understandable. I don't know, I think I just don't let people disappoint me, by never having too high expactations in people. But in the end I'm not sure whether my behavior really fits with other people's feelings. I could imagine, that I have disappointed other people, because the way I talked to them could have made them expect me to be something I'm not, like their friend or something, where I just behaved in a nice way. Sounds mean and maybe selfish, but I can't help it really, I just would never interact with someone in a disrespectful way. Other than that, I do behave context related, like I've stolen stuff a few times, but only in shops that seem to be well off, like H&M. I don't neccessarily follow that Golden Rule all the time. I know it's true, but I'm not that perfect. That's why there is a police, stuff like that. Of course, it would be perfect if we all lived by that Rule, but it will never happen. So that's the occasions, where my disgust at people shines through. I like my friends, see the good in everyone. But in the end we are all animals. We think we're so much better, but we're not. Mankind has brought the worst to the world. Society's expectations are a burden for people who don't fit in perfectly. I love the individuals, but I hate them as a whole. So sometimes I feel the need to do something bad. Another thing: I go voting, because it is my right and I should be thankful for that right. But on the other hand, the old problem: it's just 1 single vote, it doesn't matter really. And now don't start stuff like, but if everybody thought that way bla bla. Thing is, just because I think so, doesn't make ANY one else think so. I'd never try to convince people of that mindset, because I know THAT would have an effect. So my conscience tells me: rather that vote yourself, you should go on the streets and tell everyone how important it is to vote. sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't. It's not even selfish, because by trying to convice people to vote I help the system. It's just hypocritical, but as I said, it's even of higher value if you compare the two. (Of course, a combination of both is the best) But then again, I'm lazy so my conscience tells me: you didn't go on the street, at least vote yourself. EDIT: damn, that's a lot of text.. but it's an interesting topic. couldn't stop my thoughts from rushing up to me.

02-11-2009, 02:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
sleepy jack isfckingdead Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 18,967	Live and let live, man.

02-11-2009, 03:13 PM	#5 (permalink)
anticipation Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,565	i used to believe in nothing, now i believe in even less. deep.

02-11-2009, 07:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
BoopieJones Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: SI, NY Posts: 54	I probably go by the whole "be yourself" thing. I try to be really honest and genuine to everyone, I try to trust them even though its not fully there. I never try to act or be someone else for acceptance. I am content with myself for that. Acceptance, open-mindedness, and forgiveness are all principles I practice and preach. However sometimes I try to adopt a more apathetic or cynical view, because I feel like I'm seen as too emotional by others. I feel I am too self absorbed in many ways. I feel I am too immature, and must act maturely. I feel frustrated when I don't think others are considering other people than themselves, or is being selfish. I don't like judgmental people, or pretentious people. I try not to be either of those. I deeply admire humility. I don't feel I practice that enough. I try to always lend a helping hand but I find myself to be EXTREMELY selfish when it comes to certain things. I hope selflessness comes easier as I mature and become less self absorbed. I think selfishness = the root of all evil. Acceptance is the key to inner happiness. You should always forgive for you never know when you will need to be forgiven. You should always be sincere and genuine, then other people will not like you for someone they think you are rather than who you really are. You should have standards but low expectations of other people, so disappointment never hurts too much. You should never be smug, boastful, arrogant, or pretentious about your abilities. And, you should try to be as understanding as possible,so sometimes when you're a little too human, others around you will understand...