Lets just bail out the world
 

I hate this junk. I honestly feel that bailing big buisness out is postponing the inevitable. I understand the concept, though i dont agree with it all the way. I also understand that we are going to pay for it one way or another. The rising cost of natural resources is not helping anyone except big oil. I feel that greed is the biggest factor here. Though wouldnt a better economy be better for everyone in the long run. So how can any statement be valid.

I would like others opinions, maybe im not educated well enough on the topic

Oh my gosh, no one could have thought of that! You tell people to hand you things. You believe their property belongs to you. You think that big businesses should cater for you. Join the rest of the stupid liberals.

The only greed here is the idea that we should all have to make up for the mistake of others. I just find it funny how everyone doesn't want to bail out the big businesses which provide all the welfare that a ton of this country is living on in the first place. American liberalism is so hypocritical.

Politics in most forms is hypocritical, but then again so are most institutions in the world.

It is us that makes big business big... Catering should be there job.

Basically the same idea...

Yes, but you make those big businesses big based on your own free choice to buy from them. Nobody should be catering anybody. You pay for their product, then they give it to you. Then you go back to life. Both parties agreed to a price for the item, and that item is sold for that price.

No one is a slave to anyone. Financial situations should not force people into slavery.

All business from the smallest to the biggest will do anything to sell you anything so long as its not assential. Catering you ask basically... If you have to have it they will compete.. If you dont need they will find a way to make it easier, of course this goes along with after they have made you want it.

So thats really the question...
Your own free choice to buy. Right but the econonmy blows because there is high tax on what you need... Gas being one of the biggest.. and lower tax on what you want.

Its my free choice to do anything...
No one is a slave to big business ?? Enjoy higher taxes after the next bail out.

^^^ you dont have an option^^

I have stated I am against the bail out. My point is the fact that you are blaming the bail out on big businesses taking risks. Sorry, the bail out is a cause of the government meddling with the economy.

The government does not control gas prices opec does.. Thats were a S%^& ton of your problem is. So no one can afford to go any where and nobody can spend on anything else... 4.00 a gallon rediculious

It wouldn't be 4.00 a gallon if there were no taxes. There is way to much regulation in the business world from minimum wage to anti-trust laws.

If a business wants to succeed it should actually cater to a certain extent to the populace.

That's not greed Oxford and these businesses (e.g. the auto industry) haven't been making money; in fact they've been losing it. Bush has been giving tax cut to big business anyway. A good deal of Democrats in Wasington (Kucinich for instance) have been strongly against the bail outs and even Clinton's been saying they're going about this wrong and if they are going to do bail out companies they need to (and they only did this with AIG) buy the majority of the stocks and collect enough interest so the tax payers actually make money in the long run.

Once again if a business doesn't even try and cater to a populace it's not going to sell anything. This is basic supply and demand here.

Wrong. For one these bail outs ARE the government meddling with the economy. The causes of these businesses needing the bail outs is do to their own stupidity. In the case of the auto industry it had nothing to do with the government meddling with their business model it has to do with them making shitty cars. In fact if the government had stepped in like the rest of the world is and told the auto industry to start making smart cars a decade ago they'd be in much better shape. As for the financial industry if During the Clinton years they hadn't repealed Glass-Steagall all these facets of that industry wouldn't be effected. Lack of government regulation and intervention has more do with this then not.

I understand you libertarians want to blame everything on the government being too big but that's simply stupid in this case. Clinton and Bush and the Congress and Senate under them have been getting rid of things set up during the Great Depression for the past ten years as well as deregulating businesses (though this part was more Bush than Clinton.) It clearly hasn't been a good thing. I don't know how you can honestly say these bail outs are the cause of the government meddling with the economy seeing as everything that's happened points to the opposite.

Yeah the taxes on gas hasent really changed since you bought your first gallon at 99 cents or less for some of you.

I actually believe it has more to do with all the shartty loans that were givin out. Ok now you have a person that 2 years ago could apply for a loan and now they cant. Which might not be a bad thing!!! Now the 55 about to retire man that made an honest living is losing his job because his company made cuts. Shart...

I agree. What you want to do is hold a gun to a business man's head and tell him to cater. I say that the man should cater and succeed if he wants to. If he doesn't then he doesn't succeed.


This is attacking a point that I am pretty sure I didn't make. The points I made were:

• The government is forcing taxpayers to pay for a failed business that has nothing to do with me (the individual).
• American liberalism is hypocritical because they don't want to bail out companies that pay taxes to their welfare.

Number two was a generalization, but it is true for a lot of people.

Again, I don't want to force businesses into catering to anyone. That is slavery.

Nobody would have to bail out anybody if there was no welfare. The thing is, America runs on the taxes of the upper class/middle class. If the only people who were going to lose out were stockholders/people related to the business then this wouldn't have happened. However, we have entangled each other into our lives with welfare. A lot of people are now depending on other people to work for them. It isn't like it is voluntary either. It is at gun point.

Secondly, freer economies bring more successful businesses. Our economy has never been a completely free economy. In fact, what we live under right now is VERY restricted capitalism. So the notion that businesses fail under capitalism is false because we operate under the absolute worst economic system, moderated capitalism or mixed economy.

They are not deregulating enough. Moderated capitalism is worse than socialism.

Man we should go back to how things were in the '20s. Yea.

this thread = ethan vs inuzuka

may i have this dance, my lovely flapper?

Okay Ayn Rand.

The U.S.???
And what does "moderated capitalism is worse than socialism" even mean?

Is socialism an inherently bad idea?

Definition:
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Sounds like your only beef is wanting to have Adam Smith's children.

Good lord...

Your right, the conservative view is perfect. Who would want the government raising minimum wage, staying out of wars we shouldn't be in, and giving the people health care. That would just be stupid.

Almost every big recession and war has happened on a Republicans watch. Just look at the 3 depressions this country has been in. Big business is the newest for a capitalism in the United States. If you actually think they should not cater to the public thats absurd. When there working conditions are **** and they pay less than the rising cost of living I would say that's a bad thing. As Wayfarer said, they have proven themselves incompetent and unable to run things on there own because of corporate greed and bad decision making.

Agreed, however the same amount of tax is applied as it was when gas was below a dollar. Yes they are making more of course as crude oil prices rise but its still the same amount which is why gas is now lower than it has been in about 3 to 4 years.

Of course the rising number of jobs lost and cars repo'ed probably has ppl doing a f ton of walking. that in its own right snuffs the demand.

Naw man we were "thriving".

Minimum wage is a bunch of garbage. If everyone wanted they could be doctors. And anti-trust? If it's their prerogative to charge people out the ass then so be it. That's what the invisible hand is for. Make the rich richer and the poor poorer. You know what I mean?

... I cant say comfortably that im not thriving in the eyes of some economys...

Maybe if we become a communist nation we wont have to worry about this...

How can you feel comfortable when you government supports banks that give loans to babies?? Risk taking? More like epic failure.

Think about how brainwashed so many americans are with image. This covers credit cards, car loans and home loans.
Its both the fault of your ppl and your government and teaches us that if we do stupid crap dont worry.

Its big business welfare. Now thats ****ty

So your perfectly ok with someone who is trying to get by on 7.15 an hour when inflation brings up prices much faster than their wages are ever going up? The city were a grew up, many people could barely pay there bills, and if minimum wage ere any lower or not rising the would have been forced to move into even worse living conditions.

Im fully aware of what a libertarian wants, besides the obvious (partial) ridding of the state or ruling government.

Thats almost a joke. Look at the price of health insurance right now. Its ****ing ridiculous. So many people cant afford it as it is. And the price would go way down if it were nationalized, the only problem also being the quality would fall with it. My father who worked for Blue Cross, Cigna, and Health America for 15 years constantly says that the one thing there company is most afraid of is Universal Healthcare. It would create a quality issue with everyone and they would make almost no money because of the lowered costs.

There have really only been 3 major depressions from 20th century on. First in the 30's (Great Depression). The reason being because of how this country was run throughout the 20's. During that time there was 3 Republican presidents Harding, Coolridge, and Hoover. And yes they were for personal freedoms. The last 2 were very similar because this country seems to make the same mistakes over and over again. (Just like the 70's when the rich poor gap grew incrediblybecause of the oil barrens)

unequal distribution of wealth - That is what happens when minimum wages are not raised, and corporate America is hand fed everything they need.

Don't forget with this statement that these minimum wage jobs are jobs none the less. Also you must hold your own self responsible for what you have become. Every decision you have made is cause and effect of everything you have done up until this very day. Are you the person asking if you would like to super size? If so to me you are either young 15-20 or you are someone who has had problems in the past.

Once again the average greedy American feels he/she is owed something for nothing. There are more people worried about American Idol than f-ing health care. This is the problem with the world today. We need to remember this is not all one way. And for the people who have done well?? Should we tax the f out of them for there hard work and dedication?? Dont give me any "I didnt have a chance crap because there are ways to get ahead though ultimately its up to you.

Once i did a charity drive for the angle tree (free X-mas toys and what have you) and i was in awe to see that the ppl coming to get free toys were driving in 40000 dollar Cadillac Escalades and had about what my car was worth in rims... I know it might sound racial but its not these ppl were of all races. Tell me that its not the greedy American?

So like half my neighborhood if you are born into a ****-poor family and have no money to go to college and are barely able to finish high school because you have to work that is your fault!? Personally I have been in that position it took years to work at a terrible paying minimum wage job (which was extremely hard) just to save up the money to go to community college so that I could have a decent paying job. You buy the crap that the rich and government give you, that being unemployed or at a minimum wage job is always a personal problem/fault, when in reality it is many times society. For example last monday (black monday) 75,ooo people lost there jobs. Nw that they have no job to go to they have to look for some lowly 7.15 an hour minimum wage job, and you call that being a lazy American...

And yes the average American is owned a lot! Thats what makes this country better than most. If you pay taxes you deserve the right to be kept healthy and safe. I have no hate or dislike for the people that have done well, but a simple fact is that when you are rich you should not catch a tax break, or any type of break whatsoever. The trickle down theory has obviously not worked in the past and only brought the country into depression. Now im not saying tax the hell out of them, but have it the same as everyone else (that goes for big business mainly).

You have obviously not been brought up having to struggle for everything you have because if so you would realize that often it is not just "up to you". Layoffs, stock crashes, technology, being flat out poor, and many other factors can put someone out of luck.

I feel the same way in that you have missed my point. I am not talking about raising wages to put more money in someones pocket because they want it, but to have wages AT LEAST match the rate of inflation. When that rises above wages it causes many more problems than it solves. That is a simple moral issue that I feel everyone should agree with.

Yes, much of America's healthcare is privately run. We have no consistent system as it is constantly all over the place. Government run programs only cover a small percentage of people. Ill say this once... WE HAVE A PUBLIC/PRIVATE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

The 1970's recession caused by oil was a huge hit on this country. If you don't call that a depression I don't know what is. And what do you call what we are in now??? Most of the country lost a large portion of there savings, another credit crisis, and worst of all the housing market has caused banks to collapse.

I did not say it was anyone in particulars fault. What I DID say was that is is not always the persons fault. There are many factors that play into this that you are simple ignoring.

Also, we are not talking about giving people free rides or being created equal. It has to do with the fact that EVERY citizen should be able to get a chance to move up in society. That is the reason this country is known as "the land of opportunity". Moving up in class and stature are critical to the way everything works. The government and the rich would like everyone to think that if a person is of a lower class it is always entirely there fault. Point is they want to stay in power and in the ruling class.

This is simple sociology. (Which of coarse is slowly being eliminated by the government and rich)

Pretty simple... You get layed off and there are no jobs that you can immediately go to. You still need money to pay rent/etc so what do you do? Get the only jobs available which happen to be underpaid minimum wage jobs.

Same argument I have been making this entire time. Workers had terrible working conditions, very low wages, while the upper class business owners received government help and did nothing about it.

lol.

How can the first bold statement and the second bold statement both be true?

We have operated under a completely free economy before. If you thought corporate fraud was an offshoot of government intervention than you're dead wrong. The government's hand was forced in because businesses don't operate on some Randian code rationality they just want to make money...which means taking advantage of people. I understand you think progressive presidents are evil socialists but they didn't create recessions and economic problems you know in fact their policies have helped pull us out of them. Economies naturally go through ups and downs; having some regulation isn't what causes the downs.

You should stress that more. The conservative view does not work when it comes to fixing this countries heavy problems. The past has clearly shown that many times over.

And dont even get me started on the conservative view on warfare. It seems today it is better to be PATRIOTIC AND LOYAL than intelligent. Why else do you think the people in office are not to bright?

You just used recession and depression interchangeably...they're not the same thing. We've only had one depression and that was the Great Depression; singular. No S at the end.

There have been MANY recessions, but as I stated only a few depressions. (not interchangeable at all) When a recession is bad enough to effect the GDP and everyone's pocketbook severely it should be considered a depression.

There has only been one depression. A depression, by definition, is a very long economic downturn (an entire decade for instance.) We have only gone through this one that was the Great Depression. There has been no other economic depression in United States history.

It is not a very long economic downturn. Its s SEVERAL years. You are just measuring it by the great depression. Also during that time the GDP must change severly, unemployment goes way down, wages go down, and economic output goes down.

A depression by definition IS a long recession. Since a recession encapsulates all those things as well a depression does too (though they're escalated under a depression.) This isn't fucking debatable. The fact we've only had one depression (the great depression) isn't fucking debatable either.

1. I entirely disagree with the not "****ing debatable" fact. The only reason it is called a recession when it gets bad and not a depression is because the government does not want the public to lose faith in them. AKA them losing there power and say in how the country works.

2. And to Wayfarer, if you would like me to elaborate then it will. Because apparently I don't "even know what the hell" im going on about. (And I wont begin to go into how you have not even begun to describe any of your points, just simply state how they are correct)

Conservative right wing thinking does this country very little good. Yes it encourages some basic freedoms such as gun ownership and many other small personal freedoms, but does so blindly and with little insight.

Most major wars and invasions in the US have happened on a republicans watch. McKinley, Roosevelt, and Taft leading up to and WW1. In Vietnam after the entire country wanted to leave a few years into the war Nixon and Ford continued sending massive amounts of troops in. George H.W. Bush in 91 in the Persian Gulf War. Afghanistan and Iraq with younger Bush in 2001 and 2003. (This is of coarse discounting examples like WWII in which we were forced into the war while a Democratic resident was in power) The right wing way of thinking is not with your head but with a gun. Mainly if you in any way say something against the president or government in office it is unpatriotic and makes you a bad American.

Next on this list is the right wing love for big business as displayed in the last 8 years of this countries leadership. While big business and corporate monopolies have turned into the new version of Capitalism (it is constantly changing).These huge companies pay their workers next to nothing, (yet it seems hat you dont mind that and its the peoples individual fault) and keep hour and working conditions disgustingly bad. CEO's of today make 20 times what they made 30 years ago. Ford paid his workers much higher than anyone today, and he made much less because of this. Republicans allow this to happen, not only turning a blind eye, but seeming to encourage it. Do you think its fair that the CEO of a company walks away with 40 million a year while the works get less than what they need to live?

I have to go to work but I will finish this post when I come back.

This is a complete lie. Depressions are easy to spot especially in hindsight. There has only been one depression and we all know what it is.

Oh this is such blatant bullshit. Republicans didn't start World War I, it wasn't even fought on American soil it was fought in Europe. Kennedy (Democrat) got us involved in Vietnam further (though in his defense prior to his assassination he was talking about getting us out of Vietnam) and Lyndon Johnson (also a Democrat) escalated that to horrible levels. Nixon, for all his scumbaggery, started pulling troops out of Vietnam. As for Bush senior going into Iraq in '91 was authorized by the United Nations and was the right thing to do. As for King George the Fourth; going into Afghanistan was completely justifiable and probably the only thing right he did after 9/11. Really the only thing you have going on this list (against the Republicans) is the Iraq War...which is balanced out by Democratic President Lyndon B. Johnson's actions in regards to Vietnam.

Do you even listen?? Did I say they start wars? No. Try reading the post before posting pissed off short responses. Ill bold this for you so maybe it will sink in. Most major wars and invasions in the US have happened on a republicans watch. Noone said anything about starting wars just they always are more inclined to enter one.

At least Wayfarer has the decency to reply calmly and respectfully. Every time I see you disagree with anything on this forum you start swearing or have a hissy fit. Act your age, and if your real young...act older.

So what...you think we should have stayed out of World War I? Or you think if a Democrat had been in office during World War I we wouldn't have eventually gotten involved in it?

Yes, not fully but yes we should have. It was a chance for the US to show that it was a world power and keep frinds with its allies in Europe.

And a Democrat was in office for all of WW1. Have you heard of Woodrow Wilson? He ried to remain nuetral and stay out of the war.

Yes but according to you his three Republican predecessors somehow led to World War I.