Lets just bail out the world (country, fan, Tupac, American)

swim · 01-28-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

yeah man the Great Depression was some badass shit bro.

Naw man we were "thriving".

Minimum wage is a bunch of garbage. If everyone wanted they could be doctors. And anti-trust? If it's their prerogative to charge people out the ass then so be it. That's what the invisible hand is for. Make the rich richer and the poor poorer. You know what I mean?

Yukon Cornelius · 01-28-2009, 06:33 PM

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Originally Posted by swim

Naw man we were "thriving".

... I cant say comfortably that im not thriving in the eyes of some economys...

Yukon Cornelius · 01-28-2009, 06:46 PM

Maybe if we become a communist nation we wont have to worry about this...

How can you feel comfortable when you government supports banks that give loans to babies?? Risk taking? More like epic failure.

Think about how brainwashed so many americans are with image. This covers credit cards, car loans and home loans.
Its both the fault of your ppl and your government and teaches us that if we do stupid crap dont worry.

Its big business welfare. Now thats ****ty

Dr_Rez · 01-28-2009, 08:52 PM

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Originally Posted by Wayfarer

all minimum wage does is keep the poorest of the poor out of work as the price of low-skilled labour is set artificially high, not to mention the fact that it imposes far higher costs on small businesses attempting to compete with massive corporations such as McDonald's or Wal-Mart.

So your perfectly ok with someone who is trying to get by on 7.15 an hour when inflation brings up prices much faster than their wages are ever going up? The city were a grew up, many people could barely pay there bills, and if minimum wage ere any lower or not rising the would have been forced to move into even worse living conditions.

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Originally Posted by Wayfarer

you do realize that the libertarian stance is one of non-intervention, don't you?

Im fully aware of what a libertarian wants, besides the obvious (partial) ridding of the state or ruling government.

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Originally Posted by Wayfarer

"universal health care in America would be bloody tragic, especially right now. when the government holds a coercive monopoly on something (for instance, health care), all competition is stifled and thus prices can (and assuredly will) be driven as high as possible."

Thats almost a joke. Look at the price of health insurance right now. Its ****ing ridiculous. So many people cant afford it as it is. And the price would go way down if it were nationalized, the only problem also being the quality would fall with it. My father who worked for Blue Cross, Cigna, and Health America for 15 years constantly says that the one thing there company is most afraid of is Universal Healthcare. It would create a quality issue with everyone and they would make almost no money because of the lowered costs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

the U.S. has been through more than three depressions and not one was a result of libertarian policies.

There have really only been 3 major depressions from 20th century on. First in the 30's (Great Depression). The reason being because of how this country was run throughout the 20's. During that time there was 3 Republican presidents Harding, Coolridge, and Hoover. And yes they were for personal freedoms. The last 2 were very similar because this country seems to make the same mistakes over and over again. (Just like the 70's when the rich poor gap grew incrediblybecause of the oil barrens)

unequal distribution of wealth - That is what happens when minimum wages are not raised, and corporate America is hand fed everything they need.

Yukon Cornelius · 01-28-2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RezZ

So your perfectly ok with someone who is trying to get by on 7.15 an hour when inflation brings up prices much faster than their wages are ever going up? The city were a grew up, many people could barely pay there bills, and if minimum wage ere any lower or not rising the would have been forced to move into even worse living conditions.

Don't forget with this statement that these minimum wage jobs are jobs none the less. Also you must hold your own self responsible for what you have become. Every decision you have made is cause and effect of everything you have done up until this very day. Are you the person asking if you would like to super size? If so to me you are either young 15-20 or you are someone who has had problems in the past.

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That's almost a joke. Look at the price of health insurance right now. Its ****ing ridiculous. So many people cant afford it as it is. And the price would go way down if it were nationalized, the only problem also being the quality would fall with it. My father who worked for Blue Cross, Cigna, and Health America for 15 years constantly says that the one thing there company is most afraid of is Universal Healthcare. It would create a quality issue with everyone and they would make almost no money because of the lowered costs.

Once again the average greedy American feels he/she is owed something for nothing. There are more people worried about American Idol than f-ing health care. This is the problem with the world today. We need to remember this is not all one way. And for the people who have done well?? Should we tax the f out of them for there hard work and dedication?? Dont give me any "I didnt have a chance crap because there are ways to get ahead though ultimately its up to you.

Once i did a charity drive for the angle tree (free X-mas toys and what have you) and i was in awe to see that the ppl coming to get free toys were driving in 40000 dollar Cadillac Escalades and had about what my car was worth in rims... I know it might sound racial but its not these ppl were of all races. Tell me that its not the greedy American?

Dr_Rez · 01-28-2009, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukon Cornelius

Don't forget with this statement that these minimum wage jobs are jobs none the less. Also you must hold your own self responsible for what you have become. Every decision you have made is cause and effect of everything you have done up until this very day. Are you the person asking if you would like to super size? If so to me you are either young 15-20 or you are someone who has had problems in the past.

So like half my neighborhood if you are born into a ****-poor family and have no money to go to college and are barely able to finish high school because you have to work that is your fault!? Personally I have been in that position it took years to work at a terrible paying minimum wage job (which was extremely hard) just to save up the money to go to community college so that I could have a decent paying job. You buy the crap that the rich and government give you, that being unemployed or at a minimum wage job is always a personal problem/fault, when in reality it is many times society. For example last monday (black monday) 75,ooo people lost there jobs. Nw that they have no job to go to they have to look for some lowly 7.15 an hour minimum wage job, and you call that being a lazy American...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukon Cornelius

Once again the average greedy American feels he/she is owed something for nothing. There are more people worried about American Idol than f-ing health care. This is the problem with the world today. We need to remember this is not all one way. And for the people who have done well?? Should we tax the f out of them for there hard work and dedication?? Dont give me any "I didnt have a chance crap because there are ways to get ahead though ultimately its up to you.

And yes the average American is owned a lot! Thats what makes this country better than most. If you pay taxes you deserve the right to be kept healthy and safe. I have no hate or dislike for the people that have done well, but a simple fact is that when you are rich you should not catch a tax break, or any type of break whatsoever. The trickle down theory has obviously not worked in the past and only brought the country into depression. Now im not saying tax the hell out of them, but have it the same as everyone else (that goes for big business mainly).

You have obviously not been brought up having to struggle for everything you have because if so you would realize that often it is not just "up to you". Layoffs, stock crashes, technology, being flat out poor, and many other factors can put someone out of luck.

Dr_Rez · 01-29-2009, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

you completely missed my point. advocates argue that it is necessary in order lower poverty and that it can magically be done by increasing the minimum wage, but what they fail to realize is that an increased minimum wage comes with significant negative consequences, particularly for the very people it is designed to help. when the minimum wage rises, employers will often respond by not only reducing the amount of workers they employ, but also by reducing the amount of hours their employees work. to put it simply, it keeps the unemployed unemployed.

I feel the same way in that you have missed my point. I am not talking about raising wages to put more money in someones pocket because they want it, but to have wages AT LEAST match the rate of inflation. When that rises above wages it causes many more problems than it solves. That is a simple moral issue that I feel everyone should agree with.

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Originally Posted by Wayfarer

if you think America has a privatized health care system right now you're horribly misinformed.

Yes, much of America's healthcare is privately run. We have no consistent system as it is constantly all over the place. Government run programs only cover a small percentage of people. Ill say this once... WE HAVE A PUBLIC/PRIVATE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

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Originally Posted by Wayfarer

there's been one depression from the 20th century on.

The 1970's recession caused by oil was a huge hit on this country. If you don't call that a depression I don't know what is. And what do you call what we are in now??? Most of the country lost a large portion of there savings, another credit crisis, and worst of all the housing market has caused banks to collapse.

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Originally Posted by Wayfarer

...well, yes, it's your fault. it's certainly moreso your fault than it is some rich guy you've never met's fault. why should he have to pay your way? the Declaration of Independence states that all men are created equal, not that all men should be kept equal.

I did not say it was anyone in particulars fault. What I DID say was that is is not always the persons fault. There are many factors that play into this that you are simple ignoring.

Also, we are not talking about giving people free rides or being created equal. It has to do with the fact that EVERY citizen should be able to get a chance to move up in society. That is the reason this country is known as "the land of opportunity". Moving up in class and stature are critical to the way everything works. The government and the rich would like everyone to think that if a person is of a lower class it is always entirely there fault. Point is they want to stay in power and in the ruling class.

This is simple sociology. (Which of coarse is slowly being eliminated by the government and rich)

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Originally Posted by Wayfarer

how is this necessarily true in any way?

Pretty simple... You get layed off and there are no jobs that you can immediately go to. You still need money to pay rent/etc so what do you do? Get the only jobs available which happen to be underpaid minimum wage jobs.

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Originally Posted by Wayfarer

i don't support trickle-down economics either, but this is just an outright lie.

Same argument I have been making this entire time. Workers had terrible working conditions, very low wages, while the upper class business owners received government help and did nothing about it.

sleepy jack · 01-29-2009, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inuzuka Skysword

I agree. What you want to do is hold a gun to a business man's head and tell him to cater. I say that the man should cater and succeed if he wants to. If he doesn't then he doesn't succeed.

This is attacking a point that I am pretty sure I didn't make. The points I made were:

The government is forcing taxpayers to pay for a failed business that has nothing to do with me (the individual).
American liberalism is hypocritical because they don't want to bail out companies that pay taxes to their welfare.

Number two was a generalization, but it is true for a lot of people.

Again, I don't want to force businesses into catering to anyone. That is slavery.

Nobody would have to bail out anybody if there was no welfare. The thing is, America runs on the taxes of the upper class/middle class. If the only people who were going to lose out were stockholders/people related to the business then this wouldn't have happened. However, we have entangled each other into our lives with welfare. A lot of people are now depending on other people to work for them. It isn't like it is voluntary either. It is at gun point.

Secondly, freer economies bring more successful businesses. Our economy has never been a completely free economy. In fact, what we live under right now is VERY restricted capitalism. So the notion that businesses fail under capitalism is false because we operate under the absolute worst economic system, moderated capitalism or mixed economy.

They are not deregulating enough. Moderated capitalism is worse than socialism.

lol.

How can the first bold statement and the second bold statement both be true?

We have operated under a completely free economy before. If you thought corporate fraud was an offshoot of government intervention than you're dead wrong. The government's hand was forced in because businesses don't operate on some Randian code rationality they just want to make money...which means taking advantage of people. I understand you think progressive presidents are evil socialists but they didn't create recessions and economic problems you know in fact their policies have helped pull us out of them. Economies naturally go through ups and downs; having some regulation isn't what causes the downs.

Dr_Rez · 01-29-2009, 12:13 AM

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Originally Posted by sleepy jack

I understand you think progressive presidents are evil socialists but they didn't create recessions and economic problems you know in fact their policies have helped pull us out of them. Economies naturally go through ups and downs; having some regulation isn't what causes the downs.

You should stress that more. The conservative view does not work when it comes to fixing this countries heavy problems. The past has clearly shown that many times over.

And dont even get me started on the conservative view on warfare. It seems today it is better to be PATRIOTIC AND LOYAL than intelligent. Why else do you think the people in office are not to bright?

sleepy jack · 01-29-2009, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RezZ

The 1970's recession caused by oil was a huge hit on this country. If you don't call that a depression I don't know what is. And what do you call what we are in now??? Most of the country lost a large portion of there savings, another credit crisis, and worst of all the housing market has caused banks to collapse.

You just used recession and depression interchangeably...they're not the same thing. We've only had one depression and that was the Great Depression; singular. No S at the end.

01-28-2009, 06:46 PM	#23 (permalink)
Yukon Cornelius Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 625	Maybe if we become a communist nation we wont have to worry about this... How can you feel comfortable when you government supports banks that give loans to babies?? Risk taking? More like epic failure. Think about how brainwashed so many americans are with image. This covers credit cards, car loans and home loans. Its both the fault of your ppl and your government and teaches us that if we do stupid crap dont worry. Its big business welfare. Now thats ****ty __________________ Attempting to find a cure for Stupid...