No, it is you that is wrong (Israeli-Palestinian Conflict)
 

Israel launches deadly Gaza attacks | World news | guardian.co.uk

This is probably the best article I could find on it, every other article clearly has an Israeli bias and makes sure to state that the US approves of what they're doing and they always fail to mention that this "provoked action" was because of another "provoked action" ad infinitum and it all amounts to "my god is bigger than your god!"

My other favorite things about this article though:
Which makes it an acceptable act right?

The very best part, gotta love Israel eh?

YAY!

Yeah you're definitely the horrible persecuted victims here Israel.

The best part of this though IS America's approval:

I don't understand why were the one nation who can't join the "Hey Israel Bombs Aren't Going To End the Conflicts" brigade. The violence is completely self-perpetuating there and won't stop unless someone there decides to be the bigger man which isn't going to happen because only one religion can be right (shame they're both wrong) the best way to figure out which is right is through murder.

It's pretty easy criticising while you sit in your American/European/God knows where - country, with no chance of ever getting bombed.
Seriously, you judging people who are constantly in war is so pathetic.
You are pathetic, you make me sick.

:yeah:

he is pathetic for judging the israelis? the are the only people on this planet who are not allowed to say "only god can judge us". they are the worst of the worst. they make americans look like democracy fighters. they are the most blood-thirsty nation in the world. they have occupied a country with the only excuse being an ancient myth, about how their ancestors flet from Egypt and moved their 3000 years ago, and they kill the rightful occupants out. they have not a single excuse, and I don't even wonna hear about the holocaust. they had their chance to win my sympathy and they screwed that up. if the palestinians had anyother way to react except from suicide bombings I would be cheering for them, but right now I'm only cheering against israel.

Can you explain to me how killing innocent civilizations and bombing schools is going to bring peace to that region? Can you also write the prominent world leaders who have said the same thing and tell them that they're "pathetic" too? Thanks.

The reason the US supports Israel is far more sinister than people think. The Christian right believes that the Children of Israel, the Jews, have to be to be in the Holy Land during the second coming of Christ, which is soon to happen. With its excessive lobby activity, they have managed to get these fantasies into practice in the American foreign policy. Scary stuff.

If Israel believes massive bomb raids will somehow make the Palestinian population more favourable towards them they're mad. This will only increase Hamas' support on the Gaza Strip and the entire Middle East. Imagine if you're a 14-year-old Palestinian boy. All your life you have seen Israeli aggression towards your people and your neighbourhood (sometimes magnified by propaganda, sometimes not). Wouldn't you be inclined to join a movement that claims to want to put an end to Israel's attacks?

Even better though is what happens to the Jews when good old Jesus comes back.

no kids, no future, no problem.

:)

Israel's government isn't remotely stable. Getting along IS the only solution; if killing each other back and fourth would've solved anything there'd be a resolution by now. Unfortunately it would take generations and generations of peace agreements to get anywhere but mine as well start sometime soon or. I don't agree with him though that this is all Israel's fault seeing as every single country in that region wants them dead (Good job British/French, grouping people with no regard to their history, religious preferences or ethnicity was a GENIUS move.) However I do find it hard to sympathize with Israel completely. You're stupid if you think you can usurp a country and then live happily ever after there.

The problem here is the violence is completely self-perpetuating and someone needs to just stop. Israel has stronger allies, but when they pull shit like this they're not doing themselves any favors. They have sympathizers but if they keep it up with this constant escalation and indiscriminate killing they're just going to lose those supporters and when that happens (and it will) they'll have no one to blame but themselves. I'm not even going to go into whether or not these attacks are justified or who started what but all they're doing is unifying Palestinians around Hamas. So much for Blair and Bush's democratic peace theory but I don't feel like getting into what right Israel has to attack a democratically elected government.

I don't think there's ever going to be peace there (referring to Jerusalem specifically.) Christianity, Judaism and Islam all started there. So if there is a god, good job! I'm sure you'll find out who loves you the most at this rate. That city is a cancer on the world and it's sickening to think that an ancient city and a bunch of old pieces of fiction are the cause of all this.

I know I don't have the answer here...I do know that the U.S. is ridiclously pro-Isreal but really has no isea how deeply the Jews and Palestinians hate each other. I do know that the Palestinians were kicked out of Palestine(Isreal) so the Jews could have their homeland back and were exterminated much like the Jews were exterminated by the Third Reich...that is sick irony. This is a war that will NEVER end until the World does.

I'm not defending Israel or saying I think killing each other is the solution. In fact I'm saying just about everything you are.

That democratically elected government also runs a terrorist organization on the side. But yeah, it's all a crapshoot, both sides are at fault and the only way there's ever gonna be peace is if everyone just decides to get along.

Well it is a great party town. Not quite Tel Aviv, but close.

Israel didn't exterminate the Palestinians, I think comparing it to the Third Reich is pretty off base. Jews and Palestinians don't hate each other, religuous fundamentalists on both sides do.

barring ya_ba's trollhood, I would like to know where you're from.

I agree with that but I'd also mention, creating the holocaust 'myth' by blowing it up out of all proportion (by at least three times) and continuing to propagate it through the media.

You can't critizise Israel without eventually degenerating into a "we have suffered oy" argument. The human rights violations, the murder of children and old women is just at a ridiculous level. What's worse is that Israel will never be reprimanded, Yassir Arafat was a great man who truly wanted peace to be his lasting legacy, however it was not to be. Israel's instable, arrogant and frankly barbarian government and people have seen to that.

And at the end of the day Israel has no rights to the land whatsoever, I hope Hamas wins tbh.

Three hundred and sixty-four are now dead and roughly 1,400 wounded. Sixty-two were civilians and eight were children. This is basically all you need to know from the current news stories oh and that air strikes are idiotic. I am getting really annoyed how every single news article keeps saying "Israel is doing this in retaliation to this" and they're failing to mention it was just a retaliation for another act, which was a retaliation for another, etc.

62 civilions confirmed, and 8 children confirmed, confirmed is a very sly way of saying "it's probably a hell of a lot more but we don't want israel to look bad". When the dust settles it's going to be a lot worse, and I'm pretty certain any man over 14 and younger than 60 will be classified as a combatant.

I have a hard time believing air strikes would manage to kill so few civilians.

What are you saying, that 2 million instead of 6 millions jews died in the holocaust? What do you have to back that up?

What do you have to back up that 6 million died? I don't want this to degenerate into a holocaust debate.

I heard this first hand from a teacher I had who was from Palestine. But you are right that I may have been off base. But there were atrocities and they were covered up...you are very smart I wish I had students as well informed as you are.

Seriously? People, I'm not saying Israel deserves your sympathy, or is 'right', or hasn't committed atrocities, but how can you support terrorists who kill innocent civilians? Just because your against Israel doesn't mean you should condone the actions of an organization devoted to killing innocent civilians.

if the palestinians had any other way to react except from suicide bombings I would be cheering for them

maybe I put this down the wrong way...I mean if they reacted in other ways than suicide bombings. I'm against them, cause except from usually killing other innocent people, you actually kill yourself, which is not smart actually...die in battle, that's noble, but blowing yourself up with the hope that you take others with you, that's stupid imo. and ProggyMan, I would like to believe I'm educated in this matters cause I actually live in the middle-east, and what ever happens Gaza effects my country as well. if there is one thing I strongly believe, is that apathy, equals tolerance and tolerance to evil means guilt, and I honestly believe that their are politicians in Israel which are evil. also I believe is a crime against the arabs of Palestine that they were forced to give half of their country in the first place to the jews of europe, just because their was an ancient story, which might be true that they used to live there, and it's also a crime that the jewish for the last 50 years have been trying to get the other half as well. what's next the greeks will claim turkey cause up until 1500s it used to be a part of greece? I live in Cyprus which is divited since 1974 so I'll tell you, situations like this suck, and it sucks even more when every once in a while you are threatened with war. Palestinians have my sympathy because I believe in their struggle and their claim, and I feel that the ones who don't want peace are the israelis.

and now I'm quoting hamas' officials:

"Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."

"The Hamas movement is prepared to stop terror against Israeli civilians if Israel stops killing Palestinian civilians ... We have told (Palestinian Authority Prime Minister) Abu Mazen in our meetings that there is an opportunity to stop targeting Israeli civilians if the Israelis stop assassinations and raids and stop brutalizing Palestinian civilians."

"Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected."

So you support the killing of innocent Israeli? I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Fair enough, that was speculation on my part.

What are you saying? The Israeli civilians should be killed because they don't go up in armed rebellion?

The original plan was just and fair, the refugees from the Holocaust needed a home and there was room in Israel. There were other motives for creating a state of Israel besides ancient fairy tales. From the moment Israel became a country it has been under attack, I don't see how you can simply say the Israeli's are the ones who don't want peace. Like I said before, there are religuous fundamentalists on both sides who won't rest until the 'Holy Land' is free of 'infidels'. Both sides are at fault, and the only ones who deserve your sympathy are the innocent civilians caught in the middle.

If this was true of evryone on both sides then there would be no conflict. Sadly that will likely never be the case.

I like political debates, and I appreciate when person your age has certain believes and speaks his mind. anw I'm not that old myself, I'm 24 actually. the only think I would like to state right now, cause its 430 AM here (got to wake up early tomorrow), is that I don't support the killing of innocent people no matter religion or ethnicity, and that no israelis shouldn't be killed cause they don't rebel against their government, but they should do something, cause they are many, especially young people, who are against this decisions, and they should finally speak their mind. maybe this will not change anything, but why not giving it a shot?


p.s. about the signature, Im not a terrorist, I just love that movie!!!:D

I know you don't think innocent civilians should be slaughtered, I was just grilling you. They do. But the older generation still remembers the many wars fought with the surrounding Arab countries and feel that any type of concession is a sign of weakness. This is what I meant by informing yourself about Israeli politics. Bush winning twice doesn't mean all Americans have southern drawls and sit around drinking beer and counting their 11 toes all day, same with Israel.

I have to say, up until today I was firmly on the side of the palestinians: they had been evicted from their land and treated like crap since the Israelis "Returned" to Israel, but having talked the whole thing through with a friend from Israel today, and having heard his side of things, I feel quite stupid for having thought that for so long.

To be honest, it now seems to me that both sides are reacting to the other: it's impossible to tell who "started" it, seeing as the whole thing didn't erupt at once: Yes, israel seized some land from the palestinians, but in many other cases Israelis legally bought the land fairly, and they were still attacked and harassed by the "poor defenceless" Palestinians. the whole place is a mess, and both sides are reacting to violence with more violence. What would you do if you felt that your land was being taken from you?

On the other hand, what would you do if raving madmen were threatening to fire rockets and blow up your families? it's not an easy thing to sit down and talk calmly about.

Yeah, I just want to say I'm pleasantly surprised how the thread has gone, 3 pages and everything has been constructive.

indeed, the other thread I saw about this today had started off with the words "All Zionists are Butchers". Needless to say, it all went downhill from there...

I actually feel more sorry for the israeli citizens than their "enemies" at the moment, the civilians of the "terrorist" areas get a lot of sympathy from the world, but the common israelis have to put up with the fact that that they are almost universally hated for what their country is doing, in many cases is being forced to do as a result of the attacks against them, not all of which were even instigated by them.

It must be even worse for those of them who lived through the second world war, and are seeing their own country commit the atrocious bullying and slaughter that they themselves had to live through not so long ago.

I'm through believing that any Israeli can be regarded as an innocent civilian.

Care to say why?

Jesus where have you been? Israel is untouchable in America and they're not exactly an obscure and unimportant country. I can understand feeling sympathetic for the civilians but treating it like Israel is more hated than Palestine on the national stage is ignorant. I think you're being far too sympathetic towards Israel. The violence there is completely self-perpetuating and while I have no doubt that there were attacks that weren't presupposed by another attack I also have no doubt that that can be said of both sides. No one is more right or more wrong in this conflict.

On the subject of ignorant...Proggy you know you're stuff on this but after World War II you're treating it like the Jews had nowhere to go and Israel had a bunch of empty land. That's not true. Palestine lost half its land to the UN and then Israel turns around and occupied even more then just that half. 750,000 people were kicked out in 1948. Palestinians have roots in Israel too and unlike the Jews at that time they didn't have anywhere else to go. They could've made new lives in America or any other countries. They were even offered unpopulated land in Uganda. I believe the situation was handed horribly initially by the UN (on pretty much every front) but unfortunately we can't go back and deal with the situation differently.

Basically what I'm trying to say is the middle east is a clusterfuck and the blame lies everywhere and if you go into who started what, who was victimized, who did badly you'll end up pointing your fingers in every single direction.

American appeasement of Israeli atrocities.

Obama...4 more years?

It's a well established historical fact, you're the one claiming another number, thus the burden of proof is on you.

I realize the situation was horribly and unfairly mishandled but it didn't have to be that way. There's room for both groups and I think it's incredibly stupid how Israel has tried to take more land than they were originally given but I can't stress enough how the conflict doesn't come from lack of land.
So yeah, I agree with just about everything you've said here. But remember, there's plenty of room in Israel for both groups geographically, sadly that doesn't seem to be the case ideologically.
Agreed, that's what I've been trying to say all along.

Actually you brought up the 6 million specifically. He made a negative claim. His claim was "The amount of people is NOT [number]" to which your counterclaim was "The amount of people IS [number]" which puts the burden of proof on you. Get to citing sources.

Also, I might be a bit of an insensitive creep for this stance but I really don't care about the middle east. They could all die and the world would probably be a better place for it.

I wasn't saying there was a limited space; it's the fact people were removed from their homes. Theoretically speaking I bet if you had placed the Jewish community in an unpopulated large area and declared it is own country I doubt the Palestinian people would have such hatred for Israel and vice versa. (Please note I'm not taking into account religious fanatics, theological differences and how everyone wants Jerusalem.)

They used to say that a neo-con with a liberal who'd been mugged by reality.

I wouldn't call myself a neo-con, but I think i've been roughed up a little.

I'm not sure why the U.S. doesn't have a more isolationist approach to the whole debacle. During the presidental campiagn in the U.S., when asked about Darfur, John McCain said he thought we ought to engage in economic sanctions, not buying from that country and deinvesting in its companies and any that do business with the Sudan. Why we don't have a similar position here, I can't understand.

The other thing thats always confused the hell out of me about this situation is why both political parties are so stalwart on defending Isreal and why common people seem to think its an issue. One question that was asked to Joe the Plumber was "Do you agree with me that a vote for Barrack Obama is a vote for the death of Isreal?"

Forget the logic there, I'd like to know why he was concerned. Isn't a vote for John McCain a vote for the death of Iran? Why don't we care there?

Ethan had mentioned this was a war over a piece of fiction. My assumption is that he meant Holy texts, but I'd ask the same question replacing "fiction" with "policy." That is to say, policies made in the 40's should have as much bearing as, well, every thing else we did in teh 40's, little to none.

I'd also argue that Religion has little to do with it. Its the proclamation, and the name in which each side invokes, but it had to do with gentrification. Bascially people were thrown out of their homes, and so they blame the other guy, but they need a reason to do so. So they go with religion. (I don't think its that haphazard but you get the idea).

The U.S. and the rest of the Western Nations can do whatever the hell they want, this will be solved only when the nations involved have decided its gone too far. The issue I beleive their having is the same ones we have here on different matters. Old folks set in their ways aren't going to budge. So let them die. I'm not happy about innocent people dying but unless forign armies go in their and force politicians to see dead bodies up close, not much will change.

We have to wait for a child who's 6 siblings died in a bombing to get elected, and then hope he has the balls to challenge the electorate like LBJ did in the south.

Yeah I'm sorry i didn't read this first, but this is exactly right. The Taliban didn't even have a credible existance when they started. Even the Afghans, who might be one of the more impovershed people on earth, still knew these guys were a bulb short of a candelabra.

If we had made Isreal on the border of North/South Dakota, only the Protestants would care.

Your logic is flawed, but OK, here's a source:

The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust - Google Book Search

Your go.